SCFZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClLKm8Q8Pns

Capitalism kills 20 million people a year. You could argue that the deaths are exaggerated, but the same claim can be made for communism. You know how they determined the 100 million deaths? Most recently COVID deaths, and the most ridiculous of all, every nazi that the ussr killed, and every ussr soldier that died during WWII. Plus people involved in the book that determined the death disowned it as they said it was exaggerated.

You could also argue "well it's not REAL capitalism" then I could make literally the same claim.

The Russia thing can be annoying. I remember the Boris Johnson example being the best. Boris got sent to the ICU, and what did they say? Russian disinformation. Within like 3 hours they changed their mind at that.

Plus, if they were that involved... hmm... a country meddling with the democracy of another country. Yea, kind of shitty huh? Maybe America will learn their lesson after that but probably not.

kanafani wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:42 pm Let me try to put it another way. If I were a reporter and I find out that Hunter was getting paid X thousand dollars by a company in Ukraine while daddy was vice president, a few questions would come to mind. For example: What is this company exactly, what is its business model, who else sits on its board? How exactly does it benefit from Hunter being on its board? Was Joe aware that the company was courting his son? When exactly did he know Hunter was hired? What did he do about it? What about the Ukrainian prosecutor that Joe worked on removing from office while he was vice president? Did this action in any way benefit said company? Can this be construed as a conflict in interest, intentional or otherwise?

Set aside anything that the Trump team put forward... I believe the above is verified info that did not come from them. Isn't there enough for a interesting investigative story in there? Shouldn't this be pursued rigorously, beyond what the Biden team confirms or denies? Is this really not worth anyone's time? Has the press not obsessed endlessly about similar trump stories that had a similar or even weaker level of background and info to back it up? Has Biden been grilled about this to the same level Trump would have been? That is all I am asking. I really don't see what's outrageous about this.

but all of that was already investigated, by a republican-led senate committee. the report is here: https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/ ... _FINAL.pdf

sure, we can probably all agree some of what hunter biden did is a bit sketchy, but as far as i'm aware, that report led to zero criminal charges for anyone, and found no evidence that joe biden did anything wrong.

as for "what would things look like if roles were reversed", there are very comparable stories in the trump presidency that have been overshadowed by all the more nefarious stuff trump was doing, like china fasttracking 18 trademark approvals for ivanka trump when the us was negotiating trade deals with them ( https://apnews.com/article/0a3283036d2f ... 3c6dd01727 ), or all of the interplay between kushner's business interests and us foreign policy decisions, e.g. this: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ign-policy

if there's evidence joe biden did something wrong, that's obviously important and should be reported. but i haven't seen any evidence yet. i did read greenwald's "censored" article about all of this stuff, and to my read, when i compare it with the factual record, it seems deeply problematic (something his intercept editor pointed out, after which greenwald quit and claimed he was being "censored", even though the most rightwing mainstream media outlets, fox, wsj, didn't think the story was credible enough to run). he seemed to be saying "no on has proven this is false, therefore it should be reported," which is how you make yourself an unwitting pawn of the propagandist. that's not how reputable journalism works.

OK I think I am past the point where I start repeating myself, so peace out on this subject!

LOL. i mean it looks like flip just destroyed you with LOGIC

Flip’s input is appreciated, but... no

Honestly I don’t know what to say beyond what I just said. Nepotism should not be ignored, and joe should not be impeached for this, but to completely absolve him is nonsense. You’re actually telling me this is not something he could not have prevented? He couldn’t make hunter not take the job? He’s completely powerless? Please. I maintain that the media (especially the networks) would have treated this widely differently if it was trump instead of Biden. You say no. Fine, what do you want me to do about it? If the history of trump coverage in the past 5 years is not enough to convince you, then it is not going to happen.

My feeling is that your judgement is clouded by your utter hate for trump. I hate trump too, but I’m not a partisan democrat. You seem to want to defend your side to the death, which is fine, god bless. I despise both of them. My son will never get 50,000 a year on a bullshit job on the board of a corrupt company. Why should anyone accept such bullshit from their leader? The mind boggles. I had to leave my country because that’s how things work there. I guess it works like this everywhere.

I’m sorry but with all due respect trump has broken some people’s brains. I hope we all recover soon.

pretty much? it's garden variety corruption. meanwhile trump overrode the intelligence community to give his kids top security clearance

investigate burisma all you want but let's remove the clear and present danger first

i think it was hillary that broke greenwald's brain. lol


https://twitter.com/DanielleBloeme/stat ... 14177?s=20

cue you guys: obama WAS a terrorist leader

ok i leave for real this time. i love you all!!

https://twitter.com/rbgscfz/status/1326 ... 52000?s=20

rischka wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:08 pm pretty much? it's garden variety corruption. meanwhile trump overrode the intelligence community to give his kids top security clearance

investigate burisma all you want but let's remove the clear and present danger first

i think it was hillary that broke greenwald's brain. lol

GODDAMNIT RISCHKA! The guy lost, move on, lol. Time to focus on how shitty Biden is.

flip wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:14 pm but all of that was already investigated, by a republican-led senate committee. the report is here: https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/ ... _FINAL.pdf

I never claimed that this was never investigated. All I am saying is that it is a valid, non-bullshit story, and that the MSM did not push it as much as they should. I am for sure not going to read all 87 pages of it, but glancing through it, there's quite a lot of embarrassing, and I would say shameful shit. Not criminal, fine, but since when is that the bar?

flip wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:14 pm sure, we can probably all agree some of what hunter biden did is a bit sketchy, but as far as i'm aware, that report led to zero criminal charges for anyone, and found no evidence that joe biden did anything wrong.

Again, 'did nothing wrong' is very debatable. Nothing criminal, no laws have been broken, fine. But I would think that is not the only criterion we should apply on elected officials. There are all kinds of awful morally/ethically lawful bad things that one can engage in. The bar should be set higher for officials, even higher for the leader of the free world. I truly do not understand why people are not more pissed off about this, and why is the focus on Hunter being the bad actor? Daddy has all the power here. 'Trump is even worse' is an argument I can understand, but that is not the argument you are making here.

flip wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:14 pm if there's evidence joe biden did something wrong, that's obviously important and should be reported. but i haven't seen any evidence yet.

Look, in a more perfect world, journalists would take it upon themselves to pester politicians and keep them honest. Give them no quarter, investigate every shady thing to the death. 'There is no evidence, so we should move on' is not convincing. There is plenty of evidence of nepotism and abuse of power here. Forget about the legal definition of these terms. Intuitively, for any citizen, this should stink. I understand that Trump has created another reality when it comes to such issues, but still, why the hell should we accept giving Biden a pass on this?

I maintain that the media really dealt with this with kids gloves. This is not a statement that can be mathematically proved. It is just my feeling and my belief. If folks don't agree, so be it, but honestly viewing mainstream journalists as totally rational beings who use logic to follow up on this story and drop that story is ludicrous. Those people represent vested interests and ideologies, and their work and coverage is largely determined by them.

kanafani wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:04 pm Flip’s input is appreciated, but... no

Honestly I don’t know what to say beyond what I just said. Nepotism should not be ignored, and joe should not be impeached for this, but to completely absolve him is nonsense. You’re actually telling me this is not something he could not have prevented? He couldn’t make hunter not take the job? He’s completely powerless? Please. I maintain that the media (especially the networks) would have treated this widely differently if it was trump instead of Biden. You say no. Fine, what do you want me to do about it? If the history of trump coverage in the past 5 years is not enough to convince you, then it is not going to happen.

My feeling is that your judgement is clouded by your utter hate before trump. I hate trump too, but I’m not a partisan democrat. You seem to want to defend your side to the death, which is fine, god bless. I despise both of them. My son will never get 50,000 a year on a bullshit job on the board of a corrupt company. Why should anyone accept such bullshit from their leader? The mind boggles. I had to leave my country because that’s how things work there. I guess it works like this everywhere.

I’m sorry but with all due respect trump has broken some people’s brains. I hope we all recover soon.

The Hunter Biden story isn't about nepotism or him getting a job because of his father; everyone knows that this connection helped him get the job, and it was known well before the NYPost story. The claim is that Joe Biden was directly involved and used his influence as vice president to pressure people and curry favour for monetary gain for his family. Conservative media has spent significant time on this topic, and a senate committee spent months investigating before releasing a report saying that they found no wrongdoing.

Other media outlets did try to investigate the story of the hard drive, but didn't initially report on it because Giuliani refused to allow them to verify its contents, and he even said that he specifically chose the NYPost because he knew that they wouldn't spend much time trying to verify it. There's just nothing to this story. There's no evidence whatsoever of any corruption or wrongdoing on Joe Biden's part, and all you really seem to be alleging here is that it's bad that Hunter Biden got a job because of his father's name, and because it's bad maybe Joe Biden did something wrong, and it's also bad because liberal media spends more time attacking Trump than Biden.

FLABREZU wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:42 pm The Hunter Biden story isn't about nepotism or him getting a job because of his father; everyone knows that this connection helped him get the job,

Yes it is. Again, I do not care what the republicans and Rudy tried to make this about. Forget republicans, I hate them even more than I hate democrats, honest to god! I'm saying that the facts that we know (nepotism, getting a job because of daddy) already stink, and should not just be brushed off as business as usual. Really no clue why everyone does not give a shit.

MrCarmady wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:19 pm "The United States of America is the main imperialist force of the entire world and the most genocidal state in human history."
Really? Really really? Really really really?
America should be held accountable for interning Japanese-Americans during WW2, firebombing Tokyo, unleashing nuclear hell on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, destabilising the entire South-East Asian region followed by an equally awful gambit in the Middle East, alongside coups in Nicaragua, Iran, etc., don't get me wrong, but 'American imperialism gets a free pass' morphs into 'American imperialism is worse than anything anyone has ever done anywhere' which is just nonsense, and allows tyrants like Stalin and Mao in the past, and Assad / Putin / Xi Jinping / Kim-Jong Un in the present to get partial rehabilitation which is disgusting. It's like these people are picking a football team. Similar arguments fly with Israel, a clearly racist and militarist regime but one that wouldn't even rank in the bottom 3 of the fucked up places in that region, just because they're an American ally.

OH yeah. I'm Jewish, and I wouldn't even compare Nazi Germany to what The Most Evil Country in History has done to the world. Sure, "leaders" like the Kims mistreat people in their own country, and are all-star terrible people. Did they cast the democratic, upwardly-mobile nation of Guatemala into 40 years of civil war, terror, murder, state-sponsored near-genocide, and an atrocious economy and world standing, for the past 64 years, from which they'll never recover? ...And then repeat this, depending on how much involvement you grant them, in 15-30 more countries?

Just look at how thoroughly and inexorably they messed up Iran - a country of ~84 million people - and imagine living under that theocracy there instead of in the standard, functioning democracy it ought to be. So what's worse: a dictator, or a country that installs dictatorships in dozens of countries around the world? I don't think you can look at it only in terms of total deaths, anyway (not that they don't have a solid count in that regard as well). Messing up countries and ruining, or at least dramatically impoverishing, life for hundreds of millions of people is... umm... something. At any rate, I'm happy to be Canade-ee-yin

(Apologies if this comes off as aggressive or condescending; talking about the USA just gets my blood up a little )

kanafani wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:50 pm

FLABREZU wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:42 pm The Hunter Biden story isn't about nepotism or him getting a job because of his father; everyone knows that this connection helped him get the job,

Yes it is. Again, I do not care what the republicans and Rudy tried to make this about. Forget republicans, I hate them even more than I hate democrats, honest to god! I'm saying that the facts that we know (nepotism, getting a job because of daddy) already stink, and should not just be brushed off as business as usual. Really no clue why everyone does not give a shit.

I mean, you can say that that's what you personally care about, but that doesn't mean that it's what the story's about. People don't care because it's extremely commonplace and in no way unique to the Bidens or even politicians. If my dad is a judge and I use his name to help me get a job at a law firm, is that some big corruption scandal and people need to look into him? It's just normal behaviour. People leverage their connections to get jobs. If Joe Biden went to someone and said, "Hey, if you give my son this job then I'll use my position to help you out," then that is a story of corruption, but there's no evidence of that. Even if Hunter Biden told them that he'd try to influence his father to help them out, that's no evidence of corruption unless Joe Biden agreed to it. You can find it morally reprehensible that people do this, but that doesn't mean that there's a story here.

we do give a shit. we've just got a lot going on right now. the media trying not to become complicit in another hillary's emails story for one

also i don't hate trump, i feel sorry for him.

https://twitter.com/KTVU/status/1325192 ... 46912?s=20

rischka wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:35 pm we do give a shit. we've just got a lot going on right now. the media is trying not to become complicit in another hillary's emails story for one

also i don't hate trump, i feel sorry for him.

Man, the ‘shut up, republicans are an existential threat’ phase has started way too early in the cycle this time

the previous cycle isn't over according to the incumbent. considering we have bands of heavily armed militia awaiting his words, very possibly still an existential threat.

kanafani wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:43 pm

Unholymanm wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:42 pm tbh don't name your kids hunter, ryder, shoot, or turbo. do your part to make the world a better place.

Hey one of my kids is called turbo how dare you

Turbo Kanafani sounds like a character name in an anime set in the West... Cowboy Bebop or something

And I generally sympathise with what you're saying about Biden (and other folks) getting a pass on some of these things. But would giving him a pass on things to ensure he wins/Trump loses (which would not at all surprise me, with how stupid-stupid-bad most of the media on all sides is) be worth it, in the end? I mean, insofar as one side cares more about the environment, personally, yes. If one of the sides "plays dirty", and never says one bad word about their guy, while the other side tries to be fair and unbiased at all times... does that just give the former a big advantage? Or does it, ironically, bolster confidence in that side?

Wait... are you saying the solution might be to not have just two political parties, and two off-setting biases of media and journalism, that both inevitably have to cater to the basest elements of their respective side? Maybe...

FLABREZU wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:33 pm

kanafani wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:50 pm

FLABREZU wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 10:42 pm The Hunter Biden story isn't about nepotism or him getting a job because of his father; everyone knows that this connection helped him get the job,

Yes it is. Again, I do not care what the republicans and Rudy tried to make this about. Forget republicans, I hate them even more than I hate democrats, honest to god! I'm saying that the facts that we know (nepotism, getting a job because of daddy) already stink, and should not just be brushed off as business as usual. Really no clue why everyone does not give a shit.

I mean, you can say that that's what you personally care about, but that doesn't mean that it's what the story's about. People don't care because it's extremely commonplace and in no way unique to the Bidens or even politicians. If my dad is a judge and I use his name to help me get a job at a law firm, is that some big corruption scandal and people need to look into him? It's just normal behaviour. People leverage their connections to get jobs. If Joe Biden went to someone and said, "Hey, if you give my son this job then I'll use my position to help you out," then that is a story of corruption, but there's no evidence of that. Even if Hunter Biden told them that he'd try to influence his father to help them out, that's no evidence of corruption unless Joe Biden agreed to it. You can find it morally reprehensible that people do this, but that doesn't mean that there's a story here.

It is different because he is an elected official. A different standard should be used. The man represents me. Not in my name, etc. Look, it’s not like it’s murder, but I’m just saying, don’t dismiss it. Or dismiss it if you’d like, it’s up to you. I won’t. And it’s not like this is the worst thing Biden has done. The man is truly awful. But I won’t start down the list now because I don’t want to trigger a certain somebody.

rischka wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:39 pm the previous cycle isn't over according to the incumbent. considering we have bands of heavily armed militia awaiting his words, very possibly still an existential threat.

The previous cycle never ends apparently! People’s party 2024!!

https://twitter.com/alanfeuer/status/13 ... 58210?s=20

two off-setting biases of media and journalism,

the wingnut zone has nothing to do with journalism. it is a propaganda organ. MSM is 'liberal' only insofar as truth has a liberal bias. this is a myth invented by the right.

Unholymanm wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:41 pm

kanafani wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:43 pm

Unholymanm wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:42 pm tbh don't name your kids hunter, ryder, shoot, or turbo. do your part to make the world a better place.

Hey one of my kids is called turbo how dare you

Turbo Kanafani sounds like a character name in an anime set in the West... Cowboy Bebop or something

And I generally sympathise with what you're saying about Biden (and other folks) getting a pass on some of these things. But would giving him a pass on things to ensure he wins/Trump loses (which would not at all surprise me, with how stupid-stupid-bad most of the media on all sides is) be worth it, in the end? I mean, insofar as one side cares more about the environment, personally, yes. If one of the sides "plays dirty", and never says one bad word about their guy, while the other side tries to be fair and unbiased at all times... does that just give the former a big advantage? Or does it, ironically, bolster confidence in that side?

Wait... are you saying the solution might be to not have just two political parties, and two off-setting biases of media and journalism, that both inevitably have to cater to the basest elements of their respective side? Maybe...

I get the utilitarian ‘give him a pass because trump’ argument, but a. It seems at least some people here are saying there’s nothing to even see here, which is a different argument, and b. I accept that a voter would act like this, but the media? Is the media’s job to ensure Biden is elected, or is it to grill both assholes and show how fucked up it is that these are our two choices?

I don’t know if the answer is a new party on the left, or if it’s taking over the Democratic Party. Both prospects seem bleak. The latter was kind of attempted this time, and it failed, partly because of the establishment’s rat fucking, and partly because of the limitations of the sanders movement. I’m kind of black pilled. We’re fucked.

again mainly because of the hillary's emails story. they're trying not to amplify all of trump's nonsense all the time. he floods the zone with a firehose of shit

yes we need politicians to be ethical. absolutely. it just seems a little nitpicky coming out of the most corrupt administration in modern history

rischka wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 11:57 pm again mainly because of the hillary's emails story. they're trying not to amplify all of trump's nonsense all the time. he floods the zone with a firehose of shit

yes we need politicians to be ethical. absolutely. it just seems a little nitpicky coming out of the most corrupt administration in modern history

So which one is it, there’s no story, or there is a story but we need to keep it hush hush because there’s a crazy man around?

And how long must we wait before we bring up Biden’s dirty laundry? One month, 2 years, his whole term, the next 100 years?

MrCarmady wrote: ↑Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:19 pm "The United States of America is the main imperialist force of the entire world and the most genocidal state in human history."
Really? Really really? Really really really?

Sure, really. I would say that at the very least there is a debate to be had, and totals must be carefully tallied up before we reach a conclusion.

pabs wrote: ↑Mon Nov 09, 2020 2:42 pm by Jane Mayer (A REPORTER AT LARGE), titled "GAMING THE ENDGAME"

now, looking forward to see (on Fox News) Orange Man in orange jumpsuit.
hopefully, divorced Melania will keep sending him tubes of self-tanning cream in prison so his skin & outfit can stay color in color.

i get what kanafani's saying, and don't really understand the big deal. hunter got a cushy deal cuz of his daddy. duh. was that illegal? no. was it wrong? maybe. depends on the circumstances. but move past all that. joe shoulda known that that sorta thing would politically at the very least presuppose an appearance of impropriety. that he didn't, and let it happen anyways, means joe is either dumb or shameless (or he figured he'd be retired after being veep cuz hillary was the anointed one until the parallel universe took over). either way, kanafani isn't saying biden needs to be impeached. he's criticizing the guy for something that is pretty tacky, no matter how you slice it. shit-talking biden isn't some tacit endorsement of trump. i get sticking up for your guy cuz the alternative is worse, but let's not forget that there's plenty of other things to criticize biden over, let alone his dumbass son hunter

kanafani, the whole story of hunter's burisma employment was widely reported by mainstream media during the impeachment trials. that's the only reason i know a lot about it. most of your questions were answered then. hunter biden got a job on his own, surely trading on his family name. that's not nepotism. at the time, many msm commentators said there should be a law preventing a lawmaker's son from getting a foreign job like that. but there is no such law. and as flabrezu describes, people get jobs that way all the time. i'd bet children of half of the senators have had jobs like that. that's not the way i think the world should work, i said i find it sketchy earlier, and you might say hunter did something he shouldn't have done (he's said that himself), but it's not clear what joe did wrong here. you seem to think joe should have prevented hunter from taking the job. we're talking about a man in his 40s, the tearaway of the family, with a bad drug problem, for all we know joe did tell him not to take the job and hunter told him to leave him alone. he didn't need his father's consent.

joe then observed the standard ethical practice in that situation, which is to avoid altogether any conversation with his son about ukraine, his employment, etc, or at least that's what he says he did. that's why republicans during the impeachment hearings were making such a big deal about whether joe and hunter had any communications about any of this at the time. if there any material evidence that one had been influencing the other, that would have been an issue (and we'd still be hearing about it today, from republicans).

i feel like anyone reading greenwald's take on all of this is getting a very muddy picture of the factual record. i'm not sure if your perspective on this was influenced by his article, but i see a lot of similarities between what you're saying and what he wrote. it's really only because greenwald came up (as a recommended source) that i replied at all; he's been willfully dishonest about at least one subject (when he knew what he was saying was false, his correspondence with sam harris demonstrates that), so i'll perpetually be very suspicious of anything he writes, regardless of his accomplishments earlier in his career.

thoxans wrote: ↑Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:37 am i get what kanafani's saying, and don't really understand the big deal. hunter got a cushy deal cuz of his daddy. duh. was that illegal? no. was it wrong? maybe. depends on the circumstances. but move past all that. joe shoulda known that that sorta thing would politically at the very least presuppose an appearance of impropriety. that he didn't, and let it happen anyways, means joe is either dumb or shameless (or he figured he'd be retired after being veep cuz hillary was the anointed one until the parallel universe took over). either way, kanafani isn't saying biden needs to be impeached. he's criticizing the guy for something that is pretty tacky, no matter how you slice it. shit-talking biden isn't some tacit endorsement of trump. i get sticking up for your guy cuz the alternative is worse, but let's not forget that there's plenty of other things to criticize biden over, let alone his dumbass son hunter

That is exactly right. The fact that he felt comfortable going along with this, and that he got close to no pushback from his general extended clan, and that people are fine with letting this go (along with so many other things) is worse than the original act.

and i agree with you about most things, so maybe it's better just to focus on those

i'm not a democrat, or a biden apologist, or anything like that, i just don't see any facts that back up this story. i don't even like biden (well, i like him a lot more than trump, but a lot less than most of the dems who lost to him in the primaries)