21st Century filmmakers v 20th Century Filmmakers

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wba
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21st Century filmmakers v 20th Century Filmmakers

Post by wba »

how about this proposition:

We take filmmakers we love/admire who started making films in the 90s (and most likely still are making or made great stuff in the past 20 years) and make a list of those.

And then we take filmmakers who started not merely in one decade, but they get two decades (cause I'm being generous, and think 21st century filmmakers suck), filmmakers we love/admire who began making films in any year from 2000 onwards.

And then we list them.

It's not important that the filmmaker you choose made more than one film. If you love that film and he made just that one, he counts (like Charles Laughton in the 1950s with "The Night of the Hunter"). But if he made three, you love one, but don't care about the other two, he doesn't count. (and if he made ten, but you've only seen one you can put him in parentheses)

And try to list just personal favorites, not everyone you know who's made something worthwhile.
I'm sure all of our tastes are different enough that we won't simply list similar stuff.
And no "I've heard this one is great, but haven't yet seen anything" stuff. :P

And an important note: if a guy started making short films at university, it counts, if he made commercials, it counts, if we know he directed, shot and edited shorts as a teen in the garden, it counts. TV, series and anything else as well. We'll just agree to go by imdb listings, to keep it fast and simple, and have the same standard for everyone posting here.

Thus no Christian Petzold, Ang Lee, Ming-liang Tsai, Paul Thomas Anderson, etc. etc. ;)
Last edited by wba on Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
"I too am a child burned by future experiences, fallen back on myself and already suspecting the certainty that in the end only those will prove benevolent who believe in nothing." – Marran Gosov
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Post by wba »

filmmakers I (somewhat) admire who began making films in the 90s

Abderrahmane Sissako (seen 3)
Adam Benjamin Elliot (seen 6)
Angela Schanelec (seen 3)
Apichatpong Weerasethakul (seen 4)
Carlos Reygadas (seen 2)
Chan-wook Park (seen 3)
Christopher McQuarrie (seen 2)
Dante Lam (seen 4)
David Jacobson (seen 1 and a half)
Eli Roth (seen 5)
Guy Ritchie (seen 7)
Hiroyuki Okiura (seen 1)
James Gray (seen 5)
Jonathan Glazer (seen 2)
Ka-fai Wai (seen 2)
Laurent Cantet (seen 3)
Lynne Ramsay (seen 3)
M. Night Shyamalan (seen 7)
Nicolas Winding Refn (seen 4)
Nikolaus Geyrhalter (seen 2)
Oskar Roehler (seen 4)
Sabu (seen 10)
Samira Makhmalbaf (seen 3)
Sang-soo Hong (seen 3)
Sean Penn (seen 4)
Takashi Miike (seen 13)
Thomas Arslan (seen 4)
Tommy Lee Jones (seen 2)
Ulrich Köhler (seen 4)
Vincent Gallo (seen 2)
Wes Anderson (seen 5)
Zeki Demirkubuz (seen 1)


filmmakers I (somewhat) admire who began making films in the 21st century

Abdellatif Kechiche (seen 3 and a half)
Bruno Sukrow (seen 6 or 7)
Corneliu Porumboiu (seen 4)
Daïchi Saïto (seen 1)
Dan Gilroy (seen 1)
Dan Trachtenberg (seen 1)
Helena Klotz (seen 1)
Hiromasa Yonebayashi (seen 2)
J. C. Chandor (seen 2)
Kang-sheng Lee (seen 2)
Lea Mysius (seen 1)
Lucifer Valentine (seen 2)
Olivier Meyrou (seen 2)
Ronald Bronstein (seen 1)
Tom Lass (seen 2)
Valeria Bruni Tedeschi (seen 2)
Virginie Despentes (seen 2)
Last edited by wba on Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
"I too am a child burned by future experiences, fallen back on myself and already suspecting the certainty that in the end only those will prove benevolent who believe in nothing." – Marran Gosov
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Post by Silga »

filmmakers I (somewhat) admire who began making films in the 90s

Bennett Miller
Yorgos Lanthimos
Athina Rachel Tsangari
Paolo Sorrentino
Dominique Abel & Fiona Gordon
Sam Mendes
Alejandro Amenábar
Joe Wright
Robert De Niro
Elia Suleiman
Harmony Korine
Abderrahmane Sissako
Ramin Bahrani
Whit Stillman
James Gray
Alejandro González Iñárritu
Lynne Ramsay
Gastón Duprat & Mariano Cohn
Wes Anderson
Hiner Saleem
Hype Williams
Tommy Lee Jones
Julian Schnabel
Billy Bob Thornton
Kelly Reichardt
Edgar Wright
Luca Guadagnino
Jacques Audiard
Asghar Farhadi
Nicolas Winding Refn
Sofia Coppola
Andrea Arnold
Nicole Holofcener
Álex de la Iglesia
James Hawes
Laurent Cantet
Andrew Dominik
Peter Strickland


filmmakers I (somewhat) admire who began making films in the 21st century

Jia Zhangke
Shim Sung-bo
Kim Seong-Hun
Andrey Zvyagintsev
Kleber Mendonça Filho
Nuri Bilge Ceylan
Márk Bodzsár
Pablo Larraín
Álvaro Brechner
Benjamín Naishtat
Abdellatif Kechiche
Warwick Thornton
Gabriel Mascaro
Taika Waititi
Uberto Pasolini
Pablo Agüero
Eran Kolirin
Srdan Golubovic
Rodrigo Sorogoyen
Brillante Mendoza
Dan Trachtenberg
Antonio Campos
Julie Delpy
Sofia Djama
Alberto Rodríguez
J.C. Chandor
Saverio Costanzo
Martin McDonagh
John Michael McDonagh
George Clooney
Nely Reguera
Jeff Nichols
Paddy Breathnach
Mike Cahill
Samuel Maoz
Duncan Jones
Steve McQueen
Drew Goddard
Joachim Trier
Damien Chazelle
Julia Leigh
Mike Mills
Nicholas Jarecki
Denzel Washington
Jordan Peele
Alex Garland
Stephen Gaghan
John Wells
David Michôd
Sean Baker
Trey Edward Shults
Chad Stahelski
Kenneth Lonergan
John Slattery
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Post by wba »

@Silga


Interesting selection! Never heard of a lot of filmmakers there. Need to check them out, obviously!

I've also edited your list for you. You put 10 90s directors in the 2000s list. ;)
I put those ten at the bottom of your 90s selection.
If you're unsure, just look up imdb, or wikipedia.


filmmakers I (somewhat) admire who began making films in the 90s

Bennett Miller
Yorgos Lanthimos
Athina Rachel Tsangari
Paolo Sorrentino
Dominique Abel & Fiona Gordon
Sam Mendes
Alejandro Amenábar
Joe Wright
Robert De Niro
Elia Suleiman
Harmony Korine
Abderrahmane Sissako
Ramin Bahrani
Whit Stillman
James Gray
Alejandro González Iñárritu
Lynne Ramsay
Gastón Duprat & Mariano Cohn
Wes Anderson
Hiner Saleem
Hype Williams
Tommy Lee Jones
Julian Schnabel
Billy Bob Thornton
Kelly Reichardt
Edgar Wright
Luca Guadagnino
Jacques Audiard
Asghar Farhadi
Nicolas Winding Refn
Sofia Coppola
Andrea Arnold
Nicole Holofcener
Álex de la Iglesia
James Hawes
Laurent Cantet
Andrew Dominik
Peter Strickland
Jia Zhangke
Kleber Mendonça Filho
Nuri Bilge Ceylan
Warwick Thornton
Srdan Golubovic
Julie Delpy
Paddy Breathnach
Steve McQueen
Mike Mills
John Wells

filmmakers I (somewhat) admire who began making films in the 21st century


Shim Sung-bo
Kim Seong-Hun
Andrey Zvyagintsev
Márk Bodzsár
Pablo Larraín
Álvaro Brechner
Benjamín Naishtat
Abdellatif Kechiche
Gabriel Mascaro
Taika Waititi
Uberto Pasolini
Pablo Agüero
Eran Kolirin
Rodrigo Sorogoyen
Brillante Mendoza
Dan Trachtenberg
Antonio Campos
Sofia Djama
Alberto Rodríguez
J.C. Chandor
Saverio Costanzo
Martin McDonagh
John Michael McDonagh
George Clooney
Nely Reguera
Jeff Nichols
Mike Cahill
Samuel Maoz
Duncan Jones
Drew Goddard
Joachim Trier
Damien Chazelle
Julia Leigh
Nicholas Jarecki
Denzel Washington
Jordan Peele
Alex Garland
Stephen Gaghan
David Michôd
Sean Baker
Trey Edward Shults
Chad Stahelski
Kenneth Lonergan
John Slattery
"I too am a child burned by future experiences, fallen back on myself and already suspecting the certainty that in the end only those will prove benevolent who believe in nothing." – Marran Gosov
jww342
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Post by jww342 »

That caveat about not counting filmmakers who had made student films, commercials, shorts, etc. made it very difficult! I'm not 100% sure if this is accurate, but it is what it is. I haven't seen nearly enough from this period as I should!

Filmmakers Who Began in the 1990s I Like
Jiang Wen (seen 1)
Steve James (seen 2)
Hong Sang-soo (seen 5)
Satoshi Kon (seen 6 and part of his TV series)
Jia Zhangke (seen 11)
Apichatpong Weerasethakul (seen 12)
Shigeru Tamura (seen 2)
Peter Chan (seen 9)
Hirokazu Kore-eda (seen 7)
Shunji Iwai (seen 18)
Zhang Ming (seen 1)
David Fincher (seen 3)
Lisandro Alonso (seen 1)
Matthew Barney (seen 5)
Sylvain Chomet (seen 3)
Nobuhiro Yamashita (seen 1)
Lee Chang-dong (seen 3)
Virgil Widrich (seen 2)
Ari Folman (seen 1)
James Marsh (seen 2)
Joshua Oppenheimer (seen 4)
Hiroyuki Okiura (seen 1)
Asghar Farhadi (seen 1)

Filmmakers Who Began in the 21st Century I Like
Daïchi Saïto (seen 1)
Wang Bing (seen 1)
Raya Martin (seen 4)
Ryūsuke Hamaguchi (seen 1)
Ezra Edelman (seen 2)

EDIT: I can't believe I somehow missed Wang Bing. I caught this thanks to ofrene's post.
Last edited by jww342 on Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Joks Trois »

90's:

James Gray
Apichatpong Weerasethakul
Matteo Garrone (better than Sorrentino!)
David Fincher
Wes Anderson (sometimes)
Nicolas Winding Refn (sometimes)
Álex de la Iglesia (has balls but is wildly uneven)
Nuri Bilge Ceylan
Paul Thomas Anderson


00's:

Andrew Dominik (Chopper was 2000 WBA!)
Albert Serra
Lisandro Alonso

I could easily list more, but I don't feel motivated.
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Post by nrh »

off the top of my head, not digging into underdocumented early films.

90s
serge bozon*
rita azvedo gomes
s. shankar
Kamal haasan
jean charles fitoussi*
Jean paul civeyrac*
takahisa zeze
ryuichi hiroki****
rituparno Ghosh
anjan dutt
pierre leon*
wai ka fai*****
sriram raghavan
rajat kapoor

2000s
farah khan
ss rajamouli
mysskin
ram
vetrimaaran
selvaraghavan
jose celestino campusano
alejo moguillansky
Jane shin**
mari selvaraj **
masaaki yuaasa***
momoko ando
pa. ranjith
guru murugan
maneesh sharma
shaad ali
Anurag kashyap****
soi cheang
jiayin liu
dibbakar bannerjee
Pang ho cheung
amit dutta
konkona sen sharma**
miguel gomes


*people who made movies on cusp of the 2000s anyway
**only one movie so far
*** doubt count earlier animation directing assignments
**** half his movies annoy me, the other half great
*****im not counting his tv work sorry

mostly skipping the obvious ones.
Last edited by nrh on Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Silga »

wba wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 7:57 am @Silga


Interesting selection! Never heard of a lot of filmmakers there. Need to check them out, obviously!

I've also edited your list for you. You put 10 90s directors in the 2000s list. ;)
I put those ten at the bottom of your 90s selection.
If you're unsure, just look up imdb, or wikipedia.
Thanks, WBA. I may not have been very thorough with my selection. But yeah, this is a great idea to share and discover new filmmakers. ;)

I also may have included Guy Ritchie, but he made that Swept Away thing..
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Post by wba »

Joks Trois wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:01 pm

Andrew Dominik (Chopper was 2000 WBA!)

I didn't list Dominik. ;)
I think his Robert Ford film is excellent, and Killing Them Softly was enjoyable, but that's not enough for me to admire him, and I haven't seen anything else by him (apart from a few episodes of the TV series "Mindhunter").
Didn't want to make a list of interesting filmmakers or those with potential, but just the top-notch stuff I've senn.

EDIT Actually, if I look at imdb (a way I suggested cause we simply should agree on some sort of "standard" to do the lists, cause it's verifiable for everyone fast and simple) it says he directed in the 90s. :)

PS: imdb says Paul Thomas Anderson is 80s (otherwise I would have listed him as well), and Lisandro Alonso 90s. :P
Last edited by wba on Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by wba »

Silga wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 8:06 pm I also may have included Guy Ritchie, but he made that Swept Away thing..
Haven't seen that one!

I've loved his two Sherlock Holmes films and his King Arthur, and I've enjoyed Snatch very much. Wasn't overwhelmed by Rocknrolla and Lock, Stock, but it's still 4:2 and I'm really looking forward to what he will do next (I guess I'll have to check out that dreadful Will Smith Aladdin thing sometime in the future as well :D )
"I too am a child burned by future experiences, fallen back on myself and already suspecting the certainty that in the end only those will prove benevolent who believe in nothing." – Marran Gosov
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Post by wba »

jww342 wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 2:55 pm That caveat about not counting filmmakers who had made student films, commercials, shorts, etc. made it very difficult! I'm not 100% sure if this is accurate, but it is what it is. I haven't seen nearly enough from this period as I should!

Filmmakers Who Began in the 1990s I Like
Jiang Wen (seen 1)
Steve James (seen 2)
Hong Sang-soo (seen 5)
Satoshi Kon (seen 6 and part of his TV series)
Jia Zhangke (seen 11)
Apichatpong Weerasethakul (seen 12)
Shigeru Tamura (seen 2)
Peter Chan (seen 9)
Hirokazu Kore-eda (seen 7)
Shunji Iwai (seen 18)
Zhang Ming (seen 1)
David Fincher (seen 3)
Lisandro Alonso (seen 1)
Matthew Barney (seen 5)
Sylvain Chomet (seen 3)
Nobuhiro Yamashita (seen 1)
Lee Chang-dong (seen 3)
Virgil Widrich (seen 2)
Ari Folman (seen 1)
James Marsh (seen 2)
Joshua Oppenheimer (seen 4)
Hiroyuki Okiura (seen 1)

Filmmakers Who Began in the 21st Century I Like
Daïchi Saïto (seen 1)
Raya Martin (seen 4)
Asghar Farhadi (seen 1)
Ryūsuke Hamaguchi (seen 1)
Ezra Edelman (seen 2)

I agree, it's a bit time-consuming and boring checking everyone, but we can all just go by what imdb lists, to make it easier.

PS: Farhadi would be 90s, and I just remembered I've seen an axcellent film by Daichi Saito! Need to watch more of his stuff! :hearteyes:
There's also some filmmakers in your 90s list who've made favorite films of mine, but I haven't seen much else of them (I love Perfect Blue (1997), The King (2005) or My Back Page (2011)). Also ones I'm curious to see more of but which just slightly missed my list (Chang-dong Lee, Matthew Barney, David Fincher, Shunji Iwai).

And glad to have a new member on our forum!!! :cowboy:
"I too am a child burned by future experiences, fallen back on myself and already suspecting the certainty that in the end only those will prove benevolent who believe in nothing." – Marran Gosov
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Post by wba »

nrh wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 6:52 pm off the top of my head, not digging into underdocumented early films.

90s
serge bozon*
rita azvedo gomes
s. shankar
Kamal haasan
jean charles fitoussi*
Jean paul civeyrac*
takahisa zeze
ryuichi hiroki****
rituparno Ghosh
anjan dutt
pierre leon*
wai ka fai*****
sriram raghavan


2000s
mysskin
ram
vetrimaaran
selvaraghavan
jose celestino campusano
alejo moguillansky
Jane shin**
mari selvaraj **
masaaki yuaasa***
momoko ando
pa. ranjith
guru murugan
maneesh sharma
shaad ali
Anurag kashyap****
soi cheang
jiayin liu
dibbakar bannerjee
Pang ho cheung
amit dutta
konkona sen sharma**



*people who made movies on cusp of the 2000s anyway
**only one movie so far
*** doubt count earlier animation directing assignments
**** half his movies annoy me, the other half great
*****im not counting his tv work sorry

mostly skipping the obvious ones.
thanks nrh!! I need to check all those out!! Don't think I've seen films by more than three or four you've listed.
And I love the two wai ka fai I've seen so far (Fulltime Killer and Mad Detective rule!!!)
"I too am a child burned by future experiences, fallen back on myself and already suspecting the certainty that in the end only those will prove benevolent who believe in nothing." – Marran Gosov
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Post by jww342 »

wba wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:39 am I agree, it's a bit time-consuming and boring checking everyone, but we can all just go by what imdb lists, to make it easier.

PS: Farhadi would be 90s, and I just remembered I've seen an axcellent film by Daichi Saito! Need to watch more of his stuff! :hearteyes:
There's also some filmmakers in your 90s list who've made favorite films of mine, but I haven't seen much else of them (I love Perfect Blue (1997), The King (2005) or My Back Page (2011)). Also ones I'm curious to see more of but which just slightly missed my list (Chang-dong Lee, Matthew Barney, David Fincher, Shunji Iwai).

And glad to have a new member on our forum!!! :cowboy:
Thanks :D
This little exercise of making this list really made me realize just how much great 21st century cinema is still rooted in developments from the 1990s and 1980s! Even though, like you, I think that there was a serious decline in filmmaking starting around 1990, I now feel like making a serious effort to seek out good directors who started in the 21st century.
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Post by nrh »

wba wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:42 am I love the two wai ka fai I've seen so far (Fulltime Killer and Mad Detective rule!!!)
you very much need to see the films he directed by himself, especially written by..., himalaya singh and too many ways to be no. 1
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Post by ofrene »

not mentioned above

Filmmakers Who Began in the 1990s I Like (or at least have interest)

Alain Guiraudie
Bertrand Bonello
Bruno Dumont
Debra Granik
Don Hertzfeldt
Lav Diaz
Teresa Villaverde
Joon-ho Bong

Filmmakers Who Began in the 21th century I Like (or at least have interest)

Abbas Fahdel
Andrew Haigh
Benny Safdie, Josh Safdie
Bing Wang
Céline Sciamma
Jodie Mack
Maren Ade
Mia Hansen-Løve
Pietro Marcello




It might be able to expend this list but maybe in someday....
:lboxd:
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Post by wba »

jww342 wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:12 pm
Thanks :D
This little exercise of making this list really made me realize just how much great 21st century cinema is still rooted in developments from the 1990s and 1980s! Even though, like you, I think that there was a serious decline in filmmaking starting around 1990, I now feel like making a serious effort to seek out good directors who started in the 21st century.
Yes, exactly my feelings. I always thought as I do for the past 10 years, but never tried to actually list people, or pin it down with names and dates and such. I wouldn't have thought I was THAT biased towards filmmakers starting out in the 20th century myself, and only finding something like 40 great films (out of 1500+ films seen) from the past 20 years from filmmakers starting out in that period, cause I have literally seen hundreds of debut films and other work by a younger generation, and I always think of myself as rather generous and usually try (or tried in the past) to watch new stuff that interests me.

I definitely need to specifically seek out younger filmmakers that I'd possibly like and try to discover something more worthwhile in 21st century cinema than I have so far. I don't want to become one of those grumpy old guys who constantly repeat a "cinema is dead" mantra to younger generations of cinephiles. :(
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Post by jww342 »

wba wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 4:37 pm Yes, exactly my feelings. I always thought as I do for the past 10 years, but never tried to actually list people, or pin it down with names and dates and such. I wouldn't have thought I was THAT biased towards filmmakers starting out in the 20th century myself, and only finding something like 40 great films (out of 1500+ films seen) from the past 20 years from filmmakers starting out in that period, cause I have literally seen hundreds of debut films and other work by a younger generation, and I always think of myself as rather generous and usually try (or tried in the past) to watch new stuff that interests me.

I definitely need to specifically seek out younger filmmakers that I'd possibly like and try to discover something more worthwhile in 21st century cinema than I have so far. I don't want to become one of those grumpy old guys who constantly repeat a "cinema is dead" mantra to younger generations of cinephiles. :(
Well as a younger cinephile (23), I completely agree!
I was in New York as a student for the previous several years, so I got to see a lot of what's going on in 'film culture' up close. Most of my friends are really into what's going on today, but they haven't really explored much cinema that didn't show at NYFF, the arthouse cinemas, or put out by A24. They rarely watch anything pre-1960s, which is strange because New York has incredible repertory stuff that I went to all the time.

My view is that if there's any good cinema being made now, it's more likely to be coming from Latin America and Africa than Europe or the US or even East Asia (except for a few important directors). In my country (the Dominican Republic) there has been recent growth in cinema spurred by the government with filmmakers like Nelson Carlo De Los Santos Arias, Natalia Cabral & Oriol Estrada, Laura Amelia Guzman, and Jose Maria Cabral making interesting films that get shown at international film festivals. This is happening elsewhere in Latin America as well. Still, it's hard for me not to think that these films just aren't as good as say 1930s-1950s Mexican cinema, 1960s Cuban cinema, or 1950s-1960s Argentinian cinema. Likewise there have been film movements in Malaysia and the Philippines in this century, but as much as I love Lav Diaz and Raya Martin (NOT Brillante Mendoza though), I think Southeast Asian cinema was more interesting in the 1950s-1970s.

I don't know exactly what the cause is, but I'm inclined to think that film institutions have become too homogenized; from film education to funding to festivals to distribution to criticism and to academia. I've been studying the DGCINE, the government institution that has been supporting Dominican cinema, and it seems to me to be pushing directors into becoming 'festival auteurs' with all of the baggage that comes with rather than letting filmmakers develop a bit more organically. Film criticism has also become in many ways a tool for promoting the same few names that have been pre-packaged by the festival circuit.

Anyway, the way I put it to one of my friends a few months ago was, "I think that one is more likely to find a gem by patiently digging through the filmography of a William Castle or an Alfred Cheung or a Roberto Gavaldon or an Usmar Ismail than by hitting up all of the festivals." I've never really liked the 'death of cinema' journalistic trope, particularly since I know that cinema is living more than ever before in many smaller countries like my own, but it's hard for me not to think that more support should be going to the preservation and restoration of hidden gems from the past than to the production of new work.
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Post by wba »

jww342 wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 7:26 pm
I don't know exactly what the cause is, but I'm inclined to think that film institutions have become too homogenized; from film education to funding to festivals to distribution to criticism and to academia. I've been studying the DGCINE, the government institution that has been supporting Dominican cinema, and it seems to me to be pushing directors into becoming 'festival auteurs' with all of the baggage that comes with rather than letting filmmakers develop a bit more organically. Film criticism has also become in many ways a tool for promoting the same few names that have been pre-packaged by the festival circuit.
Yes, exactly my impressions throughout the last 2 decades. As festivals have become "distribution networks" themselves, and some films primarily make (or used to make) money touring the festival circuit, people tend to get put into categories and niches and labeled very fast these days. As I recall it this has been a complaint throughout the 90s already, but I think it has turned itself into a small industry, a kind of "arthouse-by-the-numbers genre", that produces good and bad films, but feels terribly homogenized to me as well.
but it's hard for me not to think that more support should be going to the preservation and restoration of hidden gems from the past than to the production of new work.
Yes, I also think that would be a great idea, because, as I said before, I honestly think that film history is about to be forgotten if we talk about the general film-enthusiastic public, as even many self-described film lovers aren't really (passionately!) interested in exploring "old" pre-1960s stuff. I also think newer filmmakers (even from the 90s) have somehow left behind "film history" or the interest to find out what came before as a concept, and probably mostly wouldn't even know who William Castle, Alfred Cheung, Roberto Gavaldon or Usmar Ismail were, and wouldn't care and couldn't be botheres to find out about them.

I have a feeling that it's rather a selection (which gets narrower and narrower every year) of some 50 or 100 "marquee" names (like Bergman, Murnau, Antonioni, etc.) and just a handful of films from them, which makes the bulk of "what one has to see nowadays" or "what's still relevant nowadays", cause - as capitalism is always quick to tell us - there has been so much "positive" overall change in the arts and so much "advancement" in technology, that the way we make films now is so much more "innovative" and "fresh" and "relevant" and "exciting" (enter another popular buzzword) than what used to be called cinema in the past (which is altogether becoming more and more "problematic", cause "the past", and people (and of course also the artists pandering to them) were generally unenlighted and uneducated and basically idiots back then - of course only when compared to our times nowadays) - it's a bit like people used to feel about early cinema or later "the silents" in general during the 40s and 50s. The past then gets relegated to an "archive" of sorts, and the films are mostly merely "products of their times", and interesting as e.g. "artifacts" from a "sociological" point of view, etc. etc.

PS: Maybe people have lost a bit the idea of artists and art expressing "universal" truths about people and humankind as such, no matter how the world was organised, and how the people lived and talked and thought, how they expressed themselves and what kind of clothes they wore. It's a bit like the past has a general deficit, and we are here to right it. But for me that's basically politics, not a legitimate point of view or anything resembling a discussion of art. This has happened in the past (like the renaissance dismissing the middle ages), and it's funny how history repeats itself again and again (the young french nouvelle vague auteurs in the 50s dismissing the older generation of french filmmakers from the 40s and 50s).
Last edited by wba on Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Joks Trois »

wba wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:24 am
Joks Trois wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:01 pm

Andrew Dominik (Chopper was 2000 WBA!)

I didn't list Dominik. ;)
I think his Robert Ford film is excellent, and Killing Them softly was enjoyable, but that's not enough that I would admire him and I haven't seem anything else by him.
Didn't want to make a list of interesting filmmakers or those with potential, but just the top-notch stuff I've senn.

EDIT Actually, if I look at imdb (a way I suggested cause we simply should agree on some sort of "standard" to do the lists, cause it's verifiable for everyone fast and simple) it says he directed in the 90s. :)

PS: imdb says Paul Thomas Anderson is 80s (otherwise I would have listed him as well), and Lisandro Alonso 90s. :P
Short films don't count bro! And Guy Ritchie is a hack! :D :cowboy:
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Post by wba »

Joks Trois wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:19 am
wba wrote: Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:24 am
Joks Trois wrote: Sat Sep 21, 2019 3:01 pm

Andrew Dominik (Chopper was 2000 WBA!)

I didn't list Dominik. ;)
I think his Robert Ford film is excellent, and Killing Them Softly was enjoyable, but that's not enough for me to admire him and I haven't seen anything else by him.
Didn't want to make a list of interesting filmmakers or those with potential, but just the top-notch stuff I've senn.

EDIT Actually, if I look at imdb (a way I suggested cause we simply should agree on some sort of "standard" to do the lists, cause it's verifiable for everyone fast and simple) it says he directed in the 90s. :)

PS: imdb says Paul Thomas Anderson is 80s (otherwise I would have listed him as well), and Lisandro Alonso 90s. :P
Short films don't count bro! And Guy Ritchie is a hack! :D :cowboy:
I love and count short films (always equally: like in a film is a film is a film ;) ). And many people make a career of shooting short films and nothing else. You wouldn't want to dismiss those, would you? :)
And anyways I think it's much easier to just go by imdb/wikipedia etc. and the earliest date in its director's credits, than to try and figure out in each single case which movie might be that elusive "feature film debut". And how about experimental filmmakers, or people working in TV who just sporadically shoot a feature, or people making documentaries for TV, or amatuer filmmakers, etc. etc.?

As narrow as my own list looks, it isn't purposefully limited to directors shooting narrative feature-length movies aimed at a festival or cinema release.

And I can't help myself, but I love me some Guy Ritchie. In my book he's much better than that touted guy Quentin Tarantino, whom he's supposed to have imitated (and made a career out of). :pirates:
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Post by jww342 »

wba wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:06 am Yes, I also think that would be a great idea, because, as I said before, I honestly think that film history is about to be forgotten if we talk about the general film-enthusiastic public, as even many self-described film lovers aren't really (passionately!) interested in exploring "old" pre-1960s stuff. I also think newer filmmakers (even from the 90s) have somehow left behind "film history" or the interest to find out what came before as a concept, and probably mostly wouldn't even know who William Castle, Alfred Cheung, Roberto Gavaldon or Usmar Ismail were, and wouldn't care and couldn't be botheres to find out about them.
I agree with this, and it's unfortunate, because in a sense there has never been a better time to discover film history. There are more books, articles, video essays, and access to old films than ever before. There are also some repertory programmers that are willing to take risks and show a lot of rare films.

Part of it is that a lot of people just don't like to take risks in what they're viewing. One of my friends never watches a film that is lower than 3.5 on Letterboxd or a some percentage on Rotten Tomatoes, it doesn't matter that the film in question is on the top 200 Kinema Junpo list or top 100 Somos magazine (Mexican cinema) list.
wba wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:06 am I have a feeling that it's rather a selection (which gets narrower and narrower every year) of some 50 or 100 "marquee" names (like Bergman, Murnau, Antonioni, etc.) and just a handful of films from them, which makes the bulk of "what one has to see nowadays" or "what's still relevant nowadays", cause - as capitalism is always quick to tell us - there has been so much "positive" overall change in the arts and so much "advancement" in technology, that the way we make films now is so much more "innovative" and "fresh" and "relevant" and "exciting" (enter another popular buzzword) than what used to be called cinema in the past (which is altogether becoming more and more "problematic", cause "the past", and people (and of course also the artists pandering to them) were generally unenlighted and uneducated and basically idiots back then - of course only when compared to our times nowadays) - it's a bit like people used to feel about early cinema or later "the silents" in general during the 40s and 50s. The past then gets relegated to an "archive" of sorts, and the films are mostly merely "products of their times", and interesting as e.g. "artifacts" from a "sociological" point of view, etc. etc.
Yes I've noticed this too, although I think institutions like the Film Foundation and the Criterion Collection are slowly building up or altering what is seen as "essential" to watch, mostly for the better in my opinion.

The bigger problem is as you mention, viewing older films as "products of their times," as if the viewer is 'above' these films unlike contemporary ones. There's also this idea that we 'know' which of these films are worth watching, when in fact we don't. There are certain films that we're told are essential, but that does not mean that the films that aren't on those lists are not as good or not worth watching. There really is no way to know what is worth watching until you watch it. I don't necessarily think that cinephiles should be delving into say WWII Japanese propaganda to find some gem (as I tried and failed!). But I do think this kind of exploration should be done more, especially by people who have the power to change our understanding of film history (archivists, academics, critics, etc.).
wba wrote: Mon Sep 23, 2019 9:06 am PS: Maybe people have lost a bit the idea of artists and art expressing "universal" truths about people and humankind as such, no matter how the world was organised, and how the people lived and talked and thought, how they expressed themselves and what kind of clothes they wore. It's a bit like the past has a general deficit, and we are here to right it. But for me that's basically politics, not a legitimate point of view or anything resembling a discussion of art. This has happened in the past (like the renaissance dismissing the middle ages), and it's funny how history repeats itself again and again (the young french nouvelle vague auteurs in the 50s dismissing the older generation of french filmmakers from the 40s and 50s).
Yeah this parochial way of looking at the past is really annoying. Things are not "inevitably" getting "better and better." In some cases it is clear that things are getting worse or are stagnant. The logical conclusion to this idiotic way of thinking is that basically whoever is born later at the superior vantage point is inherently at a place to judge, create, and act more adequately. When I actually think that there is really no way to benefit from this kind of distance unless one is actually engaged, you can't 'know' about film history just because someone out there 'knows' (a Wiki article exists). You really can't 'know' whose work is worth watching just because some website has aggregated other peoples' opinions on it.
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Post by wba »

Nothing beats making your own experiences, in life or in art. Taking risks and going into the unknown is part of it.
And it's so easy (and comparatively safe!) to do this in the realm of art... I mean literally nothing can "happen" to you, other than having your synapses linked in new ways, experiencing strange feelings, ideas, sentiments, discovering different perspectives, etc. etc. etc.
And it's usually cheaper (and safer) than drugs as well. :)
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Post by Mickey Rooney Mara »

What happened to Jade? I was enjoying their contribution to this topic.
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Post by wba »

Mickey Rooney Mara wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:08 am What happened to Jade? I was enjoying their contribution to this topic.
Yeah, me too.

Who knows?...

Sometimes new members appear on this forum, only to make a few (dozen) posts and to disappear again (mostly never to be seen or heard henceforth).

That's life, I guess.
"I too am a child burned by future experiences, fallen back on myself and already suspecting the certainty that in the end only those will prove benevolent who believe in nothing." – Marran Gosov
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Post by JADEreigns »

Mickey Rooney Mara wrote: Fri Sep 27, 2019 8:08 am What happened to Jade? I was enjoying their contribution to this topic.
:drinking:

I’m not saying I have a busy life, but I don’t always make time for meaningful contributions. Like today: this post will not be meaningful!

All I have to say is that someone listed the director of Attenberg as a 90s director - and yet the first film she came out with that anyone noticed was in 2010, 16 years after her “first film”. Of course you have trouble finding 21st century filmmakers in a list like this - anyone comparable to Tsangari that started in 2004 won’t have made a single film that was noticed yet! The criteria just make this effort a bit lopsided and nonsensical, to say nothing of the current film distribution climate. It’s a bit like comparing apples from an apple producing orchard to the apples from saplings. They need time.
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Post by flip »

i agree with jade that this exercise doesn't really prove very much - when i look on imdb at filmmakers who made a great debut feature in 2009, it's very often true that the director made some student short no one but their friends saw in 1997. by wba's criteria, that director doesn't count as a 21st century filmmaker. so i think all we're proving here is that after someone makes their first amateur student short film, it can take a long time before they have a chance to make a film anyone here might ever see. most of the filmmakers who started making films in the 2000s-2010s we just haven't had a chance to hear about yet, so we have no idea how good they are.

anyway, i looked over films i've seen from 2000-2019 and made a list of directors who debuted in the 2000s whose work i thought was promising for one reason or another, and i pasted it below just in case it adds anything to the discussion. in a lot of cases i've only seen one film, but i either liked the film or found the direction interesting. i did count a couple of people who made a single film in 1998 or 1999 if that film was short and had either no views or almost no views, since it seemed absurd to consider those filmmakers 1990s filmmakers, but i reluctantly cut people like debra granik who made one short in 1997 but who only made anything widely seen many years later.

20th C
shahram mokri
lisandro alonso
kazem mollaie
ziska riemann
bahman ghobadi
asghar farhadi
lu chuan
babak jalali
barry jenkins
saman salur
mohammad rasoulof
quentin dupieux
andrey zvyagintsev
craig zobel
jordan peele
alberto rodriguez
matthew vaughn
juan antonio bayona
aneesh chaganty
pablo larrain
kelly fremon craig
vimukthi jayasundara
nattawut poonpiriya
christopher mcquarrie
justin kurzel
alex garland
michael dowse
babak anvari
nathan fielder
bart layton
wisit sasanatieng
bo burnham
greta gerwig
shintaro shimosawa
daniel ragussis
craig gillespie
jonathan milott + cary murnion
boots riley
patrick downing
jerusha hess
andrew haigh
john crowley
s craig zahler
glenn ficarra + john requa
ihor podolchak
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Post by wba »

flip wrote: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:42 pm by wba's criteria, that director doesn't count as a 21st century filmmaker.
ok, the thread's title might be irritating or even misleading (as it arose from a discussion on a different thread), but I never actually explicitley said that filmmakers who began in the 20th century are not (also!) filmmakers from the 21st (quite to the contrary, my own argument is more that what we think of "new" 21st century filmmaking might not be that "new" after all) - more properly, what I said was that much (if not most) of what we consider to be great 21st century films and filmmakers are actually heavily influenced by their 20th century sensibilities (cause they began making films back then, with the technology that was used back then, etc).

And if we're talking about filmmakers who began making films in the 90s (and yes, a student film can be very important in the development of ones' style and themes etc, and shouldn't be simply dismissed), that equally excludes all(!) 21st century filmmakers who began making films in the 80s or the 70s or the 60s or the 50s (and some of my favorite current directors began their careers in the 50s and 60s).

It's just one decade (90s) vs. two decades (2000s and 2010s), so the guys starting out in the 21st century actually have a slight advantage here - cause I of course realize it needs a little time to make more than one or two films.

So a time-span of 20 years should be quite enough for someone to be at least somewhat visible to the cognoscenti, so that filmmakers who began merely a decade earlier aren't able to completely overshadow or outnumber the younger ones.

And as I stated as well, it's about quality, not quantity, so one great film can be quite enough for someone to be included in such a list.
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Post by flip »

wba wrote: Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:09 am ok, the thread's title might be irritating or even misleading (as it arose from a discussion on a different thread), but I never actually explicitley said that filmmakers who began in the 20th century are not (also!) filmmakers from the 21st (quite to the contrary, my own argument is more that what we think of "new" 21st century filmmaking might not be that "new" after all)
oh, sorry, i didn't mean to suggest i was paraphrasing you. i was just outlining the criteria i was using to make my list. if i look at imdb listings for several of the directors i listed, they often have one isolated entry from the 1990s that seems to have nothing to do with what they did later. e.g. lisandro alonso made one 4-minute short in 1995 that he only co-directed. after that, nothing until la libertad in 2001. aesthetically, technologically, commercially, there isn't much the 1995 short has in common with the later alonso films. so to me, alonso is someone who got started in the 2000s - he was responding to (or perhaps defining) the aesthetic conditions of the 2000s, not of the 1990s.

discovering that a lot of filmmakers we think of as 2000s filmmakers made a short film or two in the 1990s i think only proves that a director needs a lot of training and work on smaller projects before anyone will give them the money to make a feature film that anyone at scfz might actually see. so when you say you're giving 2000s filmmakers an advantage by comparing a 20-year period, 2000-2019, with a ten year period, 1990-1999, i don't think that's nearly the advantage you're claiming it to be -- any filmmaker who got started in 2010 probably hasn't had the chance to make more than one widely distributed film, if that, while the filmmakers who started in the 1990s might have made a dozen by now, making it more likely we at scfz have seen some of their work.
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Post by RenaultR »

I haven't commented around here in a while, but one thing I find interesting about the idea of rescuing neglected works is that a lot of the films and filmmakers from more overlooked corners of the world, such as Rocha, Brocka, Sembene and/or something like Valerie and Her Week of Wonders is that they in fact had high profile arthouse visibility in Western countries back in their day but for one reason or another just fell out of circulation and therefore out of 'cinephile consciousness' whereas the likes of Bergman, Bunuel et al. continuously remained in circulation. And as for the Apu Trilogy, while it certainly wasn't well catered for on home video until recently it's reputation didn't necessarily wither.
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Post by Lencho of the Apes »

I have to disagree, Renault -- unless you lived in Paris or NYC, arthouse/repertory programming back through the late 70s was limited to "Bergman, Bunuel etc" and (at least in USA) to Hollywood films canonized for their quality as star-texts or a few Sarris-endorsed directorial signatures.

"Rocha, Brocka, Sembene and/or something like Valerie and Her Week of Wonder"s were never that highly visible; 1985 or so, a Tarkovsky screening in Washington DC was such! a! big! deal! that people planned their weekend around it.
The opposite of 'reify' is... ?
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