SCFZ poll: Vera Chytilova

[Holdrüholoheuho]

in general, to pronounce her name right, you can try to mimic the (Czech, čeština) audio offered in google translator (it is pronounced well)...
https://translate.google.cz/?hl=cs&tab= ... =translate

specifically...

1/ "ch" is a bit tricky...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch_(digraph)
The letter ch is a digraph consisting of the sequence of Latin alphabet graphemes C and H, however it is a single phoneme (pronounced as a voiceless velar fricative [x]) and represents a single entity in Czech collation order, inserted between H and I.

CH is a sound that's created when you get your mouth ready for "h" (as in hungry), but then instead of voicing the sound in your throat, you just let out breath noisily - that is directed towards the upper roof of your mouth...
CH is a sound that isn't found in English, but it's doesn't appear solely in Czech either. Russian has it as "х" (e.g. in хохот), German has it as "ch" or sometimes "g" (e.g. in richtig), Spanish has it as well - as "g" before "e" or "i"

2/ "ti" = "t with caron" (that is skipped due to following "i") + "i" — pronounced [tɪ]

ď, ť, and ň are pronounced slightly different than their counterparts d, t, and n.
They´re softer, and sound somewhat like ‘dyuh´, ‘tyuh´, and ‘nyuh´. When these
three letters are followed by an ě or an i, they lose the hook but are
pronounced the same.

3/ whenever there is an acute accent above letter (like at the end of "Chytilová") it is pronounced long (looooong) /aː/

4/ caron above "e", i.e. "ě" (Věra) is somewhat tricky too... "vě" is [vjɛ]... (vye) or (vie), f.e. Soviet...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%9A
The letter ě is a vestige of Old-Czech palatalization. The originally palatalizing phoneme, yat /ě/ [ʲɛ] became extinct, changing to [ɛ] or [jɛ], but it is preserved as a grapheme.

This letter never appears in the initial position, and its pronunciation depends on the preceding consonant:

Dě, tě, ně [ɟɛ, cɛ, ɲɛ] is written instead of ďe, ťe, ňe (analogously to di, ti, ni).
Bě, pě, vě, fě is written instead of bje, pje, vje, fje. But some words (vjezd, "entry, drive-in"; objem, "volume"), are written with bje, vje because –je- is part of the etymological root of the word, preceded by the prefix v- or ob-.
Mě [mɲɛ] is written instead of mňe. For etymological reasons, mně is written in some words (jemný, "soft" -> jemně, "softly").

P.S. I have no clue how they pronounce (New York Rangers) Filip Chytil in the US or Canada but if they do it right then it is supposed to be the same pronunciation as with Věra Chytilová. It is the same surname. In Czech, the female surname has -ová ending, suggesting a female is propriety (of the male). The unpalatable heritage of the past code. Boomer females usually don't try to get rid of it (of the -ová ending), but many younger local girls do (facing the criticism of the local Boomer males).

[Holdrüholoheuho]

To counteract a bit the shameful P.S. above and to prove that not all the Czech Boomer & older males were/are chauvinist assholes, i have to mention the following.
Věra Chytilová made a documentary about the first Czechoslovak president Tomáš Gariggue Masaryk called TGM THE LIBERATOR (1990)...
https://letterboxd.com/film/tgm-the-liberator/
As a single boy, TGM was only TM (Tomáš Masaryk).
He supported female emancipation and when he married an American girl Charlotte Garrigue, they both (groom & bride) adopted each other (second) surname and he became TGM (Tomáš Gariggue Masaryk).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1 ... ue_Masaryk
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Garrigue

[Umbugbene]

German has it as "ch" or sometimes "g" (e.g. in richtig), Spanish has it as well - as "g" before "e" or "i"

In German the "ch" is sometimes in the back of the mouth as you describe, but only after "a", "o", "ö", or "u". After "e", "i", "ü", or "y" it's a hissing sound like the Chinese (pinyin) "x" pronounced with the tongue not quite touching the ridge behind the teeth (sounds like a very light "sh"). Both the "ch" and the "g" in "richtig" have the latter (front-of-mouth) pronunciation.

I might be mistaken, but I believe the Spanish variant has a little extra force from the diaphragm, so it's not exactly the same... but that probably depends on the country too.

Did I miss it, or did you say how the "y" is pronounced in her name? I'm curious about the pronunciation too, so thanks for explaining it!

[Holdrüholoheuho]

German has it as "ch" or sometimes "g" (e.g. in richtig), Spanish has it as well - as "g" before "e" or "i"

In German the "ch" is sometimes in the back of the mouth as you describe, but only after "a", "o", "ö", or "u". After "e", "i", "ü", or "y" it's a hissing sound like the Chinese (pinyin) "x" pronounced with the tongue not quite touching the ridge behind the teeth (sounds like a very light "sh"). Both the "ch" and the "g" in "richtig" have the latter (front-of-mouth) pronunciation.

I might be mistaken, but I believe the Spanish variant has a little extra force from the diaphragm, so it's not exactly the same... but that probably depends on the country too.

Did I miss it, or did you say how the "y" is pronounced in her name? I'm curious about the pronunciation too, so thanks for explaining it!

I have no objection against all that you wrote about "ch" in German or Spanish (btw. I am somewhat fluent in German or Russian, but not in Spanish).
I just picked that quote because it was the best I could find at the moment to (roughly) explain the peculiarity of "ch" pronunciation.
In sum, Czech "ch" pronunciation is not "kh", "h", "sh" or alike (the way Americans & Canadians & Englishmen/Engliswomen might tend to pronounce it).
I guess, "ch" in the middle of "richtig" is closest. (This is probably how the pronunciation of Czech "ch" might be best explained to someone who is also fluent in German.)
Russian "x" is also very similar (almost identical).

The following "y" (following after "ch" in Chytilová) is pronounced as "i".
The difference between "y" and "i" in Czech is mostly just orthographic (and in orthography many times just arbitrary).

1/ After ž, š, č, ř, j is always written "i" (never "y").
2/ After h, ch, k, r is mostly written "y" (in exceptional cases "i").
Chytilová is part of this rule. (The exception with "i" after "ch" is f.e. "chichotat se" = to jiggle)
3/ After d, t, n is usually written "y", but once those are ď, ť, ň then they are followed by "i" and their caron is omitted. (Here it is somewhat puzzling that caron in lower case d and t doesn't look like caron — Ďď Ťť as opposed to Ňň (it is because d and t lower case letters have those high strokes). Thus Chytilová is pronounced as CHYŤILOVÁ (Chyťilová) however caron is omitted (in the written form of the name) due to "i" that follows. Or in other words, the right way of writing is Chytilová/CHYTILOVÁ (without caron above "t") but "TI" is pronounced as "ŤI".
4/ After b, f, l, m, p, s, v, z sometimes "i" and sometimes "y" is written. There is no rule. It is completely arbitrary. In the early stages of the local elementary school, one is urged to memorize a set or words (for each of those letters) with "y" spelling. It is one of the most annoying things in the early stages of local education. Once you get older and this arbitrary "rule" becomes your second nature, usually you don't need to memorize those set of words anymore (to write right). Now, I would have a hard time memorizing all those sets of auxiliary words right (without missing a single one), but i believe i write "y" and "i" right (mostly).

In sum (back to your question), there is no difference between "y" and "i" in terms of pronunciation in Czech.

[Umbugbene]

Thanks for the thorough explanation. I wondered because in Polish there's a strong difference between the I and the Y (Y sounding like the English short I). And in German the Y sounds like Ü, not that German's close to Czech or anything.

[Holdrüholoheuho]

in Czech the difference between the short and long pronunciation of vowels is made by acute accent above the letter.
a (short) versus á (long)
e vs. é
i vs. í
o vs. ó
u vs. ú, ů (long "u" at the beginning of the word is ú, long "u" in the middle of the word is ů — however, there are some exceptions when ú is written even in the middle of the word)
y vs. ý

[Umbugbene]

So it's not like Spanish or French where the mark over the vowel means the syllable is stressed? Good to know, thanks. I was probably stressing a lot of Czech names wrong in my head.

I wish I could easily pronounce that Ř sound!

[MrCarmady]

Huh, I've been pronouncing it (in my head, mostly) with a ch (like in change, I don't know orthography, sadly) sound all this time. So would that have been Czytilova?

[Holdrüholoheuho]

i guess in Czech the stress on syllables follows some general pattern (not based on diacritics).
i would have to investigate it tho to be able to explain — i do it "naturally" so i am blind/deaf to it.

Czech tongue twisters...
(f.e. tři sta tři a třicet stříbrných křepelek přeletělo přes tři sta tři a třicet stříbrných střech = 333 silver quails flew over 333 silver roofs)
https://youtu.be/_LcBRHkNVNw

[Holdrüholoheuho]

Huh, I've been pronouncing it (in my head, mostly) with a ch (like in change, I don't know orthography, sadly) sound all this time. So would that have been Czytilova?

I guess, pronunciation Czytilova would be written Čitilová in Czech.
What Czechs write as "č", Polish usually write as "cz" (but "ch" is a different sound).
Change is also a local "č" and not "ch" pronounciation.

play left-side (čestina/Czech) audio to hear the sound...
https://translate.google.cz/?hl=cs&tab= ... =translate
if you play right-side (English) it is pronounced as Czytilova/Čitilova (which is wrong).

[Holdrüholoheuho]

https://youtu.be/MweiKlY-Jw8

I tried to listen how "Chytil" is pronounced in these NHL highlights and seems like they pronounce "ch" more or less okay.
It doesn't sound like "kh" (k) or "cz" (č) which is wrong but it resembles the local "ch".
What they do wrong is "swallowing" i (in second syllable -ti-/-til).
They say "Chytl" instead of "Chytil" (or Chy-tl instead of Chy-til).

So, I expect American & Canadian & English spellers might tend (if mastering "ch") to say Chy-tlo-va instead of Chy-ti-lo-vá.
(If wrongly written Chi-ti-lo-vá, it would sound the same — i/y makes no difference in pronunciation.)

And they also pronounce y long (as if pronouncing "ý"), saying Chyyyyytl.

So, i expect there might be a tendency to say Chyyyyy-ti-lo-va instead of Chy-ti-lo-vááááááá.
(If Chyyyyy-ti-lo-va pronunciation would be right it would have to be written Chýtilova/CHÝTILOVA — with "ý" instead of "y" and "a" instead of "á".)

[sally]

my mouth (well throat mainly) is still melted from the danish lesson greennui gave us a while back. will anyone mind if forever in future i just refer to this most admired lady as vera?

[Holdrüholoheuho]

my mouth (well throat mainly) is still melted from the danish lesson greennui gave us a while back. will anyone mind if forever in future i just refer to this most admired lady as vera?

If you boycott to pronounce/spell her name Věra ("vyera/viera"), then there is still an option to call her Vieira (as if referring to Patrick Vieira).

https://youtu.be/O6-TQvwLJK8

[Holdrüholoheuho]

last but not least, if anyone wants to refer to her and express excessive fondness, then i recommend using a diminutive Věruška (pronounced "Vyerushka") — in vocative: Věruško! ("Vyerushko!").

----------------------
nominative: Věra (Věruška) Chytilová
genitive: Věry (Věrušky) Chytilové
dative: Věře (Věrušce) Chytilové
accusative: Věru (Věrušku) Chytilovou
vocative: Věro (Věruško) Chytilová!
locative: Věře (Věrušce) Chytilové
instrumental: Věrou (Věruškou) Chytilovou

[Evelyn Library P.I.]

I'd love to take Czech classes with you, jiro !

[Holdrüholoheuho]

lesson No1:
PROPER DECLENSION OF THE NAME JIŘÍ (in diminutive: JIŘÍČEK, in the familiar form: JIRKA)

nominative: Jiří / Jiříček / Jirka
genitive: Jiřího / Jiříčka / Jirky
dative: Jiřímu / Jiříčkovi / Jirkovi
accusative: Jiřího / Jiříčka / Jirku
vocative: Jiří! / Jiříčku! / Jirko! ... so misspelled "Jiro!" is near to "Jirko!" (familiar) or "Jířo!" (feminine) — formal Jiří takes no suffix in vocative
locative: Jiřím / Jiříčkovi / Jirkovi
instrumental: Jiřím / Jiříčkem / Jirkou

Some Czech names have substantially different formal and familiar forms (Josef/Pepa, Jan/Honza, etc.).
Some Czech names have identical formal and familiar forms.
Jiří/Jirka is somewhat in the middle (not vastly different, not identical).
I must admit, I am always torn apart what form to prefer.
Formal Jiří sounds too formal (almost bookish), familiar Jirka sounds somewhat imbecile (tho if i pretend it sounds Finish it is almost okay).
Jiříček is childish.
As far as i remember, the nastiest way my sisters called me when I was an infant was "Jiřináč" ("Jiřináči!" in vocative).
Sometimes, a male Jiří might encounter the form Jířa/Jiřina (Jířo!/Jiřino! in vocative) but it has an effeminate flavor because the same forms are used in relation to a female of the name Jiřina/Jiřino! (familiarly Jířa/Jířo!) — Jiřina is feminine equivalent to Jiří (the same as f.e. Anthony & Anthonia).
There is also a bird name "jirička" (common house martin / not to be mistaken with swallow).
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%C5%99i ... becn%C3%A1
When (nowadays 5 yrs old) son of my niece learned the word "jirička" and realized it is similar to "Jiří/Jiříček", he for some strange reason considered it highly amusing and few times called me Jiričko! as a sort of inside joke.

--------------------------------
Věra (formal) / Věruška (diminutive) / Věrka (familiar)

[Evelyn Library P.I.]

lesson No1:
PROPER DECLENSION OF THE NAME JIŘÍ (in diminutive: JIŘÍČEK, in the familiar form: JIRKA)

nominative: Jiří / Jiříček / Jirka
genitive: Jiřího / Jiříčka / Jirky
dative: Jiřímu / Jiříčkovi / Jirkovi
accusative: Jiřího / Jiříčka / Jirku
vocative: Jiří / Jiříčku / Jirko ...... so misspelled "Jiro!" is near to "Jirko!" (formal Jiří takes no suffix in vocative)
locative: Jiřím / Jiříčkovi / Jirkovi
instrumental: Jiřím / Jiříčkem / Jirkou

Some Czech names have substantially different formal and familiar forms (Josef/Pepa, Jan/Honza, etc.).
Some Czech names have identical formal and familiar forms.
Jiří/Jirka is somewhat in the middle (not vastly different, not identical).
I must admit, I am always torn apart what form to prefer.
Formal Jiří sounds too formal (almost bookish), familiar Jirka sounds somewhat imbecile (tho if i pretend it sounds Finish it is almost okay).
Jiříček is childish.
As far as i remember, the nastiest way my sisters called me when I was an infant was "Jiřináč" ("Jiřináči!" in vocative).
Sometimes, a male Jiří might encounter the form Jířa (Jířo! in vocative) but it has an effeminate flavor because the same forms are used in relation to a female of the name Jiřina/Jiřino! (familiarly Jířa/Jířo!) — Jiřina is feminine equivalent to Jiří (the same as f.e. Anthony & Anthonia).
There is also a bird name "jirička" (common house martin / not to be mistaken with swallow).
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ji%C5%99i ... becn%C3%A1
When (nowadays 5 yrs old) son of my niece learned the word "jirička" and realized it is similar to "Jiří/Jiříček", he for some strange reason considered it highly amusing and few times called me Jiričko! as a sort of inside joke.

Oh, I'm so sorry, I appear to have squashed jiri and kino together into a typo as I typed!! I would have known that was wrong if I'd reread what I wrote

Right, so in that sentence I wrote, I'd want to put Jiří into the vocative case, in which case it would simply be Jiří, same as the nominative. In what context would I say 'Jiříčku' or 'Jirko'? Are they interchangeable variants?

Currently, adding Czech to my ever-growing list of language-learning goals! That said, I've begun learning Latin and it's taught me that learning a language is simply fun for its own sake, so there's not really any language I would object to attempting at this point.

[Umbugbene]

I think reading your posts has been worth at least 3 daily Duolingo lessons. Although I've dabbled in more than a dozen languages I'm sorry to say Czech isn't one of them, although I have hopes of exploring the country in greater depth someday (been to Prague twice and Plzeň once). Right now I'm trying to concentrate on German and Tagalog, although I took a detour into Hindi last year.

[Holdrüholoheuho]

I hope my "fixing your mistake" doesn't sound reproachful.
It was just supposed to be a (somewhat) absurd way of joking
I was rather surprised you used right -o suffix (tho right with other forms of the name).

With Jiříčku! you refer in about 90 percent to kids.
In about 10 percent, it might be a kind of (infantile) lovely chirping or might be used ironically — f.e. if you want to give an adult Jiří a kind of lesson, you might start saying "Jiříčku!..." (accompanied with an ironical grin)

Jirko! is a very common way of addressing Jiří.
This familiar form is widely used (more frequently than Jiří!).
Mostly i am addressed Jirko! among locals (not Jiří!), but all these familiar versions have a certain simpleton flavor — tho Pepa (a familiar version of Josef) is much worse (when you want to say a joke here with a simpleton as the main protagonist your first choice is "Pepa") — Honza (a familiar version of Jan) is usually a somewhat dumb and lazy guy in local fairy tales (tho his dumbness & laziness is ultimately not an impediment to gain a fortune) — etc., etc.
Thus i tend to think most lucky are those called by a name that has identical formal and familiar forms (there is no dilemma what to prefer).
I use mostly "jiri" (omitting diacritics) online.
It is short and there is no -rk- combination (probably hard to pronounce).
Tho in the bygone internet ages i used a few times "Jirka Novakoski" nick (pretending i am Finish).

[sally]

jiri i am sad to say we can never meet, unless you want to see me in the middle of a panic attack. i thought god had a lot of names.

[Holdrüholoheuho]

In the very past, i had the ambition to learn (at least some basics) of Hindi/Sanskrit.
I bought "Czech-Hindi/Hindi-Czech" vocabulary and "Learn Sanksrit Yourself" textbook.
I had an idea that by becoming familiar with Sanskrit, i might get an insight into the "nature" of language.
But realizing more and more the language has an arbitrary nature, I diverted my attention from Sanskrit to the exploration of Surreal/Absurd.

[Holdrüholoheuho]

sally, we can meet the very moment you will feel free to have your cherished panic attacks in the middle of my over-explanation tirades!

[---]

Wow guys, thanks for the thorough discussion on Czech language. Really fascinating stuff! I wish I'd started exploring non-English languages earlier in my life... but I'm glad I started as early as I did. I hope I have time to learn a Slavic language at some point.

[flip]

i started learning czech once but got about as far as 'hudba' and 'zvuk' and that's about all the vocab i remember (sorry if i'm missing accents, i wasn't learning to spell). i learned enough that i could write absurdist czech haiku

i'll tally up the four open polls (chytilova, iosseliani, sen, wong kar-wai) this weekend -- so if anyone still has a ballot to post, please do soon! and if anyone is still watching for one poll, let me know and i can save that tally for last.

[Holdrüholoheuho]

"hudba" (music) and "zvuk" (sound) are spelt right! (there are no accents there).

besides the intricate diacritical system, the most complicated is probably the wide variety of prefixes and suffixes in endless conjugations and declensions. (i was never learning Latin, but it might be similar.)
however, the wide variety of prefixes and suffixes is conducive to being playful and coming up with a wide variety of neologisms (i.e. it is conducive to "writing haikus").
if you are not a native speaker and your aim is to spell/pronounce right i can imagine it might be a nightmare.

[Holdrüholoheuho]

As i already mentioned in the previous post/posts, the main issue of making English subs to Věruška's THE JESTER AND THE QUEEN is how to translate mispronounced/misspelt Czech (mispronounced/misspelt by a foreign (French) Queen) or to what degree keep untranslated German or French phrases (to preserve the playful intermingling of 3 different languages — Czech, French, German)...

(maybe the first phrase would "sound" better/weirder "No call me, mommy!" ???)
(oh, how to make it clear these mistranslations are intentional ???)

[Umbugbene]

the most complicated is probably the wide variety of prefixes and suffixes in endless conjugations and declensions.

Yeah those are a pain for English speakers to bother with. I always wonder, "Won't they understand if I just use the root by itself?" which of course leads to babytalk. It seems like Slavic languages have about double the complications of Romance languages in terms of conjugations and declensions. And I've never dared to attempt Finnish or Hungarian, which are apparently much much worse.

Tagalog has prefixes and suffixes too, with the added hell of infixes (letters inserted INSIDE the word to express the case). But there aren't as many varieties, so it's not so bad I guess. Indonesian/Malay is so much simpler though.

[Holdrüholoheuho]

I always wonder, "Won't they understand if I just use the root by itself?" which of course leads to babytalk. It seems like Slavic languages have about double the complications of Romance languages in terms of conjugations and declensions.

If you mess up conjugations and declensions (i.e. if you will err in suffixes) you will be 95-99 percent understood. (babytalk)
However, if you will err in prefixes (or diacritics) you are entering the abode of haikus.

With different prefixes, different meanings are created.
There are other ways to make a neologism too, but speaking about suffixes, prefixes, and diacritics, then prefixes & diacritics are No1-2, and suffixes No3 in terms of entering a slippery slope of enigmatic language hardly to be grasped by native speakers.
The main purpose of accents is to suggest the pronunciation but they are capable to alter the meaning massively as well.
Locals are sometimes writing on the internet (or sending SMS) completely without diacritics and it is 95-99 percent understandable (due to context).
However, if you will misplace or omit some random accent in an otherwise rightly spelled sentence you might trigger a lot of confusion.
Here are some examples...

1/ PREFIXES

verbs:
nastupovat (na-stupovat) = to board
vystupovat (vy-stupovat) = to exit
postupovat (po-stupovat) = to proceed
zastupovat (za-stupovat) = deputise, substitute
odstupovat (od-stupovat) = step down

nouns:
nástup (ná-stup) = boarding
výstup (vý-stup) = exit
postup (po-stup) = proceedure
zástup (zá-stup) = substitution, crowd
odstup (od-stup) = (to have a) distance

2/ DIACRITICS

nic = nothing
nič = destroy! (3rd person singular imperative of "ničit" = to destroy)

rada = advice
řada = queue, row
ráda = glad, happy (to do something) (3rd person feminine)

citelný = keenly felt
čitelný = legible

běž = run!
bez = without

věž = tower
věz = know (it)!

bor = pine wood
boř = demolish!

vír (long í) = swirl
vir (short i) = virus

šíř (long í) = width (old-fashioned bookish expression, normally "width" is "šířka")
šiř (short i) = spread!

kos = blackbird
koš = basket, trash can

krtiny = molehills (plural of "krtina")
křtiny = christening

žádaný = desired
zadaný = engaged

krize = crisis
kříže = crosses (plural of "kříž")

plast = plastic (noun)
plášť = coat
plást (medu) = honeycomb

být = to be
byt = a flat

etc., etc., etc.

[flip]

i know bure and mrcarmady were maybe planning to post updated ballots -- i'll be happy to factor those in to the final tally if you post them before i put this up on letterboxd (which won't happen all that soon). if you do want to edit a ballot, pls make a new post, quote your earlier ballot, and post your new ballot alongside it, so i can adjust easily, thanks!

as with the iosseliani poll, if there's anything surprising about the results, i'd think it's that this was a close contest. oh and maybe it's surprising that 16 different chytilova films got votes:

results
1. Daisies (1966) — 15 pts
2. Panelstory (1980) — 11 pts
2. Fruit of Paradise (1970) — 11 pts
4. A Bagful of Fleas (1962) — 9.3 pts
5. The Very Late Afternoon of a Faun (1983) — 5.3 pts
6. Something Different (1963) — 3.5 pts
7. Kalamita (1982) — 3 pts
7. Expulsion from Paradise (2001) — 3 pts
7. Green Street (1960) — 3 pts
10. Pearls of the Deep: “The Globe Buffet” (1966) — 2.5 pts
11. A Hoof Here, a Hoof There (1989) — 2 pts
11. Searching for Ester (2005) — 2 pts
11. Ceiling (1962) — 2 pts
14. Traps (1998) — 1.1 pts
15. Wolf’s Hole (1987) — 0.5 pts
16. The Jester and the Queen (1988) — 0.1 pts

[Evelyn Library P.I.]

Having only seen one (Daisies), I didn't get to vote in the poll, but I did get a fantastic mini-lesson in the Czech language - thank you, jiri ! Always neat to see what the poll discussion leads to.