Everything is Political

[MrCarmady]

lol

is there some way i can not see this thread? i'm just too disturbed right now. most of the people i see every day still support trump.

i thought 2021 would be better

do you guys think a war is inevitable and/or desirable? that's what bannon wants. i think people may vote for socialism... in 50 years or so. is the plan to destroy democracy first? how will we establish this socialist utopia and what can i do to help. i'm really scared and i don't get to talk to many sane people. sorry again. not getting much sleep lately as i'm working double shifts cuz everyone is out with covid. do any of you know trump supporters? most of the men i know are trump supporters so i might be projecting on you guys

am i becoming the new damian? i'm gonna stay away for awhile since i can't seem to stop fighting with people

please don't leave! since liquidnature has been gone i assume we have no trump supporters left in the building, to me the posts here scan as friendly debate, not as in-fighting. at least i hope so...

[Monsieur Arkadin]

do any of you know trump supporters?

I'm from the Rural midwest... so yes. To an upsetting degree. Luckily no one I really care about or feel a need to maintain a relationship with.

to me the posts here scan as friendly debate, not as in-fighting. at least i hope so...

Me too... but I'm also terrible at reading a room, so I don't know how helpful that is.

[rischka]

oh i thought you lived in taiwan or somewhere

https://twitter.com/MrChuckD/status/134 ... 68608?s=20

mr chuck d knows. very tense rn

and yeah sorry i get angry at suggestions trump and hillary are the same. it's a trigger

when bernie said a woman couldn't beat trump, he was right. k back to work

[kanafani]

I think Bannon's vision for the way Trumpism would evolve was based on economic populism, but in the end he lost out to the more traditional hawkish / big corporate wing of the party. So I feel like what Arkadin is saying makes a lot of sense, the culture war comes first with these people, anything to own the libs. But of course both parties rarely get beyond lip service when it comes to making working class people's lives meaningfully better, it's just that the Democrats usually aren't actively harmful in the way that Republicans are, they're just mostly useless.

Traditional republican elites are pro-business to the marrow, so economic populism is anathema to them. I don’t follow right-wing inner debates too closely for obvious reasons, but there does seem to be a current that is advocating that republicans should lean more on populism, kind of in a similar way as certain right wing parties in Europe. Protectionism, anti-immigration, some strategic handouts, etc. Democrats gave up on working class people, so they’re up for grabs so to speak. hell, I am positive trump would have won had he managed to send a hefty relief check to everyone a few weeks before the election.

I have to disagree with the bit about Democrats not being actively harmful. They are plenty harmful. NAFTA and other free trade agreements, crime bill, eternal war, surveillance state, no Medicare for all. They’re super harmful, they think it’s ok though as long as the group of people doing the harm is sufficiently diverse.

[MrCarmady]

What's so horrible about NAFTA??

[kanafani]

What's so horrible about NAFTA??

NAFTA and other free trade agreements are great for corporations, and a disaster for working people

[Monsieur Arkadin]

oh i thought you lived in taiwan or somewhere

If this is aimed at me... I have moved almost every year for a decade. Which is impossible to keep track of. But I did for a while. Times like this make me wish I was still there.

[Monsieur Arkadin]

They’re super harmful, they think it’s ok though as long as the group of people doing the harm is sufficiently diverse.

This is my view as well. I think it's undeniable that the Republicans are more harmful in the short term (specifically with issue like climate change, and as evidenced by the pandemic, public health) but I think both paths lead to the same tragic end. The republicans get us there faster though.

[kanafani]

They’re super harmful, they think it’s ok though as long as the group of people doing the harm is sufficiently diverse.

This is my view as well. I think it's undeniable that the Republicans are more harmful in the short term (specifically with issue like climate change, and as evidenced by the pandemic, public health) but I think both paths lead to the same tragic end. The republicans get us there faster though.

I agree with you, brother abou al-arkadin. There is a difference in velocity. But beyond that, let us not forget the crucial role democrats play in preventing change and safeguarding the system by absorbing and neutralizing dissent from the left, something that the republicans can’t do.

[...]

But beyond that, let us not forget the crucial role democrats play in preventing change and safeguarding the system by absorbing and neutralizing dissent from the left, something that the republicans can’t do.

Sounds a lot like you're mindset is still in the Bush era of Republicans. Believe me, if Trump or his followers had their way, there'd be no question over how quickly they'd silence all dissenting views.

There's a big difference between a horrible war criminal president like Bush or a loathsome scumbag like Bill Clinton and an outright fascist like Trump. The first two still held to certain norms in government that Trump tried/is trying to completely annihilate. While, as I've said before, I certainly don't begrudge anyone watching the US from afar a moment of glee in seeing the country suffer and lose some of its international standing and power that led to so many crimes and deaths, thinking a fascist government would be any kind of improvement or even equivalent is absolutely nonsensical whether one is talking about purely internal considerations or those from abroad. Until the US addresses its legacy of racism and privilege it cannot address its history of class antagonism. The former must be dealt with to achieve the latter. Not "solved" of course, as if that's any kind of near term possibility, but frankly acknowledged to its fullest extent and processes started towards some sort of mending, along with that necessarily must come changes towards a more socialist distribution of services and goods in order to achieve any lasting stability. But without addressing white privilege and US exceptionalism, racism will be used to halt social progress by turning the working class against itself, allowing the wealthy to prosper off the conflict.

[rischka]

yes, i agree with greg ^

without addressing white privilege and US exceptionalism, racism will be used to halt social progress by turning the working class against itself, allowing the wealthy to prosper off the conflict.

~ same as it ever was

[kanafani]

Greg, forgive me for being dense, but how is the role played by Democrats as I outlined it have anything to do with whether trump or bush is in power? We just saw them block a sanders run, that’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. And why are you insinuating that I’d be happy with a fascist regime and that it would be an improvement? When on earth did I say that? And who’s watching from afar in glee? I’ve lived in the us for 20 years, I’m a us citizen, lol.

That being said, I completely disagree with you that trump is worse than bush. Bush is a fucking war criminal who used radioactive weapons on civilians. I admit I have no patience for arguments saying that trump is worse because he threatens abstract terms like rule of law etc. there are enough concrete things we can look into.

Racism, class, social progress... all those things are related. Why must we see them as competing issues like this? We can’t have health care until we solve “racism”? What’s this? Lots of African Americans, especially the young, were excited about Bernie.

I have to make sure my pasta doesn’t get burnt, I’ll read your response more closely after lunch...

[...]

Trump wants to impose a dictatorship, that is remove all opposition and run the country by his whim alone. That is infinitely worse for the US and the world than even Bush's war crimes, as Trump would inherit the same machinery of war with absolutely no check on his powers to use them, were he to succeed in his goals. Trump's repeatedly expressed the desire to use nuclear weapons to settle conflicts, as just one example of how much worse things could be, and obviously hasn't the least conscience when it comes to doing whatever it takes to get what he wants or silence his critics, so any thought of a vocal opposition would be a fantasy. Under Trump's desired outcome, the US would likely have less freedoms than any place outside of maybe Pyongyang and that, given the power and influence the US still holds, would have a ripple effect throughout the world.

I'm not insinuating you would be happy to have a fascist government, but that by equating the Bush era/type Republican to Trump you're ignoring the major differences between the times and the people. And the disclaimer wasn't for you, but for everyone who reads the site, knowing some do live elsewhere and have expressed some satisfaction over the not unironic troubles the US is having. I'm just trying to cover that area of response as I can appreciate where it comes from, but think it also misses the bigger point.

[kanafani]

Trump does not have the energy nor the courage nor the skills to establish a dictatorship. He’s a pathetic tv clown personality who likes being rich and famous. His ascendancy exposes a rot that precedes him. That being said, a more competent right winger nut who is interested in actual power rather than fame might come down the line, and that would be a threat. Neither you nor I wants that to happen, but what is your point exactly? We should shut up and not ask for change because we need to stop the fascists? It really doesn’t matter what you or me think personally about this, I don’t think centrist Democrats can deal with the contradictions long term. You can’t expect people to suffer and accept it because of a theoretical bad outcome. Democrats are increasingly comfortable with representing affluent polite suburbans and not giving a shit about anyone else; that will be enough for a majority sometimes, but eventually it will not. Hell, if it wasn’t for COVID, trump would have been re-elected easily. In the absence of a left/progressive movement that stands for real change, fascists will eventually have the upper hand.

[kanafani]

On a separate note, putting my “foreigner from the global south” hat on for a second, it is honestly quite condescending and unconvincing to tell us that trump is infinitely worse than what came before. Try to imagine how that plays with the families of the countless dead and maimed. Not that they’re following this conversation. We can expect to get shit from any us administration, as history clearly shows us.

[thoxans]

by equating the Bush era/type Republican to Trump you're ignoring the major differences between the times and the people

i'd disagree with this insofar as they're all symptomatic of the cancer that is (neo)conservatism. trump was merely the logical result of george w. who was the logical result of reagan. won't tie reagan back to nixon cuz that would honestly be a disservice to nixon...

[...]

Trump is the inflection point. He doesn't need the skills himself, save for the most important one of complete absence of morality and shame, a need for attention and worship, and the love of chaos that so favors the privileged. He doesn't do anything, he orders others to do what he wants and finds those willing to do it. They're the force of the threat, he's the figure head that somehow a large portion of the population loves. Trump wouldn't care about most details, that'd be left for the Bannons or whoever to implement. And without addressing the threat Trump posed, the next generation of Trumpian stooges will have an easier time of it, or take over from him. Trump succeeded by racism primarily and that drives his followers to act against the own self interest in all other facets to focus on white privilege. That actively undermines any attempt at other progressive ideals and must be addressed in order to have any hope for stability. It's not that there can't be any progressive legislation, but that it, like even something as weakass as the ACA, will continually be undermined simply for being the work of libtards until there is some accounting.

I'm not expressing any faith in Joe Biden and much of the Democratic party in the immediate term other than they are the alternative to Trump and have at least some members who are pushing for more progressive ideals and at least make a point of noting there are problems to be addressed, like racism and the other "isms", but also existential threats like climate change, which demand action now. Biden is not the solution for those problems, he's just the solution for Trump right now and that problem is the most pressing and important. The rest need to be dealt with and require the work of the newer more leftist house members to push as far as they can and keep gaining support from the rest of us by adding to their numbers and expressing our agreement with them. Biden's old, more the remnant of the boomer/x eras that did so much to support Trump. Biden needs to hold enough of that same group to support him to allow for the further left to push into the mainstream as the Tea Party did for the right. That's the only option right now, saying "both sides" are the same undermines that at the point where it is most emphatically not true. Trump and his followers have openly declared their intentions and values and need to be stopped and when anything that sounds like there is little difference between them and the Democrats at this moment is dangerously wrong for treating this as if its politics as normal.

And with that I gotta go, so I won't have a chance to reply again until late tonight I suspect.

On preview: I don't disagree with the idea that there may be a sort of linear progression from Reagan to Bush to Trump, though perhaps not quite as cleanly as suggested given Trump's specific psychosis, but that still doesn't make for an equivalence as that progression also carries greatly increasing threat. The history of how we got here is important, but "here" is still importantly different and distinct than "Then", as bad as some of "then" could often be.

[kanafani]

But without addressing white privilege and US exceptionalism, racism will be used to halt social progress by turning the working class against itself, allowing the wealthy to prosper off the conflict.

Corporatist democrats have shown again and again that they neither have the ability nor the desire to address US exceptionalism. They are guardians of US exceptionalism. They don't address white privilege either, they just offer symbolic empty gestures, like appointing minorities to positions of power, which can only qualify as "addressing white privilege" if you yourself are privileged already. Fighting for universal health care addresses white privilege, as the ones who most suffer from lack of health care are the most underprivileged, and a lot of them are disproportionally black and brown. Fighting for a living wage addresses white privilege as well, the same with fighting for better jobs, and a cleaner environment, etc. These things are all interconnected. Not that I'm one who believes that Bernie would have sailed through if it wasn't for centrist democrats conspiring against him. That played a role, but his loss definitely also exposed limitations to such an insurgent run that is doomed to only go so far if not supported by structures that can support it and nourish it (an organized militant labour, a leftist party with an infrastructure built over years, etc). There are many hurdles against a real left emerging in this country, but I truly believe that the alternative is doom.

[rischka]

the alternative is doom

I suspect we all agree on that

[kanafani]

the alternative is doom

I suspect we all agree on that

Hooray for common ground

[kanafani]

One more note before I disappear back into the shadows: When talking about Trump's ascendancy, we cannot ignore the role played by centrist democrats. Their policies, failures and inadequacies over the decades left a huge void and provided an opening for the monster, so saying that we now must coalesce around them for more of the same is unconvincing. The definition of madness and so on.

[rischka]

should we storm the capital our options are limited at the moment

https://twitter.com/JoshMargolin/status ... 32096?s=20

[thoxans]

jfc do these people not have jobs?

[Holdrüholoheuho]

DOOM is our common ground.
DOOM officiating a wedding.

[kanafani]

Ha ha ha ha

https://twitter.com/RichardHanania/stat ... 6165231616

[Holymanm]

On a separate note, putting my “foreigner from the global south” hat on for a second, it is honestly quite condescending and unconvincing to tell us that trump is infinitely worse than what came before. Try to imagine how that plays with the families of the countless dead and maimed. Not that they’re following this conversation. We can expect to get shit from any us administration, as history clearly shows us.

^ yes. Previous, lawful American regimes have already been about as bad for the world as any country could possibly be, barring nuclear war or all-out war and genocide against every other country. For the dozens of countries whose governments, economies, cultures, homes, and lives were already, umm, liberated from existing, there's hardly any such thing as "worse" - even if the breakdown of US institutions has this looming, spooky ripple effect on the world and all. So if Trump would literally nuke the world, yes, much worse. If not, the rest of the world is just looking at it like WWE

...but I know Greg is a nice guy and not meaning to be insensitive in any way. I'm just cranky because the TV here is always left on the ******* news, and I have to hear tenured US reporters talking about how they've never seen anything in their life as "horrifying" as the attack on the "sacred" (word repeated many times) US Capitol... even as they've covered literal wars and genocide (with non-white people) before -_-

(^ I don't know who Susan Collins is, but FUCK Susan Collins)

[Holdrüholoheuho]

#OnePlanetSummit
#BlaBlaBla
https://twitter.com/GretaThunberg/statu ... 78530?s=20

I don't want to criticise, and I do understand your frustration, but you are starting to seem very cynical. I think you are more effective when you are not cynical.

I don’t think that this sort of reaction will change anything. What you call “bla bla” is green diplomacy. The coordination of our governments’ environmental policies is something that should give us hope.

[thoxans]

FUCK Susan Collins

can gleefully fill you in on ol' suze with the following:

gee the senate is deadlocked on a stupid issue that no one cares about and the dems need a single dissenting vote to help them out

susan 'the moderate from maine' collins takes a really really really long time to decide how she'll vote but ultimately dissents and votes with dems

yay stupid issue that no one cares about got passed cuz susan 'the moderate from maine' collins is so moderate that she makes moderation look downright excessive!

[five minutes later]

gee the senate is deadlocked on a super important issue that will affect hundreds of millions of people and the dems need a single dissenting vote to help them out

susan 'the moderate from maine' collins takes a really really really really really really really really long time to decide how she'll vote but votes with her party as expected

darn super important issue that a majority cares about failed cuz susan 'the moderate from maine' collins is nothing more than a token nay on only stupid shit or when her party otherwise has the votes already locked up so ol' suze can meaninglessly vote no to fool people into thinking she's not as horrendously god awful as mcconnell and the rest of them

[five minutes later]

:rinse and repeat:

[Holymanm]

susan 'brown people are scary' collins

[rischka]

https://twitter.com/MelissaBlasius/stat ... 39841?s=19

tbf he is a shaman, maybe there's some kind of religious exemption he could get. JK fuck this clown