Polling the films of director David Mamet
The rules:
- your list can include no more than half of the Mamet films you've seen, up to a maximum of 5. So if you've seen seven of his films, for example, you can list only a top 3. It's only if you've seen ten or more of his films than you can list the maximum of five.
- i'll assume ballots are ranked unless you tell me otherwise. unranked ballots are fine.
- deadline for ballots: next Friday, in seven days, whatever day that is
- if anyone is watching films for these polls, then i'll extend the deadline up to three days, if someone requests an extension
- next poll: whoever posts the first ballot in this thread is free to nominate the director we poll next, unless you've nominated in this round already (everyone should get a chance). Already nominated this round: greennui, bure, roscoe, kanafani, greg x, silga
umbugbene created an index on letterboxd of all of our previous polls here: letterboxd.com/umbugbene/list/index-of-all-scfz-director-polls/
one rule for nominees: at least 3 scfzers need to have seen 10+ of a nominee's films, or at least 4 scfzers need to have seen at least 8 of the nom's films, so if it isn't clear if that will be the case, we'll confirm that's true before moving forward
if 24 hours pass after a poll opens, and no one eligible to nominate has posted a ballot, then i'll nominate someone, and then we'll start over, and everyone will be able to nominate again
SCFZ poll: David Mamet
it seemed from comments in the donaldson thread that mamet didn't have many views so i guess we'll use the extended rules:
- if you have seen an odd # of his films, you can round up instead of down when determining how long to make your ballot (e.g. if you've seen seven, you can list a top four instead of the usual top three)
- if you have seen more than 10, you can list more than 5
- if you have seen an odd # of his films, you can round up instead of down when determining how long to make your ballot (e.g. if you've seen seven, you can list a top four instead of the usual top three)
- if you have seen more than 10, you can list more than 5
The Shield: "Strays"
Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants
Oleanna
House of Games
The Winslow Boy
State and Main
Two Painters
Spartan
seen 21 counting tv episodes
Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants
Oleanna
House of Games
The Winslow Boy
State and Main
Two Painters
Spartan
seen 21 counting tv episodes
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oscarwerner
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:13 am
- Contact:
Seen 10:
1-Redbelt (2008)
2-The Winslow Boy (1999)
3-Homicide (1991)
4-House of Games (1987)
5-Spartan (2004)
1-Redbelt (2008)
2-The Winslow Boy (1999)
3-Homicide (1991)
4-House of Games (1987)
5-Spartan (2004)
just seen
the spanish prisoner
which i have a vague recollection of liking way back when, so we'll go with that.
the spanish prisoner
which i have a vague recollection of liking way back when, so we'll go with that.
"Most esteemed biographer of Peter Barrington Hutton"
the spanish prisoner
things change
things change
Seen a couple. Not worth rating. His plays are better. A couple of them are. And now that he's a Republican he can go fuck himself forever.
These matters are best disposed of from a great height. Over water.
I, for one, don't re-evaluate Mamet's work due to his change or shift in politics. He's been working in the show business for more than 40 years and has delivered work that has rarely, if ever, been informed by his political stance.
Just like I ignore what a scum Oliver Stone had become when he degraded himself to sucking on Kremlin's tit for money. In my opinion, it still doesn't take away from the work that he did earlier in his career.
Just like I ignore what a scum Oliver Stone had become when he degraded himself to sucking on Kremlin's tit for money. In my opinion, it still doesn't take away from the work that he did earlier in his career.
Fair enough, but you still have to note that the ideology that led to whatever late choices these guys make is usually nascently present in their earlier works as well. Stone and Mamet, and lots of other "tough" writer director types, have lots of seriously questionable material in even their early works.
hold up a second - mamet was a committed liberal (with a few unorthodox positions, sure) most of his life. his conversion to free market conservatism happened after he made his last feature film (or maybe it was before redbelt but not much before). so if you're suggesting he was injecting some kind of conservative ideology into his films, it was ideology he didn't himself believe. so that would be weird.
and the whole idea of first evaluating art (or its creators) for ideological correctness rather than for what it is as art always makes me think of stalin and mccarthy. i don't want to only watch films written or directed by people i agree with anyway. films/plays like oleanna are interesting in part because they challenge (intelligently, imo, i'm sure some will disagree) pretty much anyone's views on its subject matter. if a film is going to engage with ideology at all, that's what i want - i know what i think and why i think it, i don't need a film to reinforce what i think. i want a film to challenge what i think so i think better. that's if i want politics in film at all, which i usually don't (and usually don't find in mamet anyway).
so yeah, mamet's current politics are idiotic imo, but i'm not going to condemn his plays or films for that - i'm with silga there. mind you, my partner is a whole lot smarter than me and thinks the opposite about this kind of thing, so maybe i'm all wrong about it.
and the whole idea of first evaluating art (or its creators) for ideological correctness rather than for what it is as art always makes me think of stalin and mccarthy. i don't want to only watch films written or directed by people i agree with anyway. films/plays like oleanna are interesting in part because they challenge (intelligently, imo, i'm sure some will disagree) pretty much anyone's views on its subject matter. if a film is going to engage with ideology at all, that's what i want - i know what i think and why i think it, i don't need a film to reinforce what i think. i want a film to challenge what i think so i think better. that's if i want politics in film at all, which i usually don't (and usually don't find in mamet anyway).
so yeah, mamet's current politics are idiotic imo, but i'm not going to condemn his plays or films for that - i'm with silga there. mind you, my partner is a whole lot smarter than me and thinks the opposite about this kind of thing, so maybe i'm all wrong about it.
spartan
homicide
the unit: "security"
the unit: "old home week"
redbelt
i find mamet fascinating even as i'm totally unsympathetic to almost everything he's interested in. his book on directing is kind of an amazing object, so completely wrong-headed in every way (and seemingly totally incompatible with his actual directing practice at the time he wrote it) but very seductive to a certain kind of reader. the more weirdly neo-con, crypto-fascist he gets the more interesting the films are, which isn't to say good or anything.
homicide
the unit: "security"
the unit: "old home week"
redbelt
i find mamet fascinating even as i'm totally unsympathetic to almost everything he's interested in. his book on directing is kind of an amazing object, so completely wrong-headed in every way (and seemingly totally incompatible with his actual directing practice at the time he wrote it) but very seductive to a certain kind of reader. the more weirdly neo-con, crypto-fascist he gets the more interesting the films are, which isn't to say good or anything.
Seen a bunch of his plays and liked them but none of the dude's films. Had no idea about his politics, how weird. Might check out Things Change for the 1988 poll and kill two birds with one stone.
You should! I watched it last year and it was one of the most delightful discoveries of 2020. Don Ameche is just wonderful here + a great cast of Mamet's regulars.
seen 9
1. Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants
2. State and Main
3. House of Games
4. Homicide
5. The Winslow Boy
1. Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants
2. State and Main
3. House of Games
4. Homicide
5. The Winslow Boy
I don't care what anyone likes or dislikes, watches or doesn't, as everyone is their own final arbiter on their tastes and inclinations and there's nothing anyone can do about that, but that's something different than trying to look at what it is those movies show and say or suggest through how they look at their subjects and what they ignore and letting that speak for itself as well. Hollywood has been filled with "committed liberals" for most of its history while simultaneously making films that are sexist, racist, and support all sorts of other questionable, problematic or just conservative ideology. That is an integral part of Hollywood history and helped shape the way people perceive the world, sometimes for some good but as often or more for the worse.
People can claim whatever they want for their values and because the terms are fuzzy, they can more or less be truthful in those beliefs even as they might show other aspects that run counter to those claimed values. You can't talk about the history of art, for a broader example, without talking about the importance of Picasso, but if you talk about Picasso without talking about his deep seated misogyny then you are not looking closely enough at the work, where that misogyny is as evident as his talents. Mamet's fascination with "challenging", how he encapsulates those questions, and the shape his characters and the world he puts them in makes the "committed" part of his values less than convincing in how he treats his worlds. But, hey, its been a long time since I even bothered with the guy, more his plays/screenplays/writing than films he directed, which I've only seen two, so I'm not gonna claim expertise on this, just a strong and lingering impression that he wasn't as committed to liberalism, at least outside the voting booth, as he suggests.
People can claim whatever they want for their values and because the terms are fuzzy, they can more or less be truthful in those beliefs even as they might show other aspects that run counter to those claimed values. You can't talk about the history of art, for a broader example, without talking about the importance of Picasso, but if you talk about Picasso without talking about his deep seated misogyny then you are not looking closely enough at the work, where that misogyny is as evident as his talents. Mamet's fascination with "challenging", how he encapsulates those questions, and the shape his characters and the world he puts them in makes the "committed" part of his values less than convincing in how he treats his worlds. But, hey, its been a long time since I even bothered with the guy, more his plays/screenplays/writing than films he directed, which I've only seen two, so I'm not gonna claim expertise on this, just a strong and lingering impression that he wasn't as committed to liberalism, at least outside the voting booth, as he suggests.
It just seems sad and somehow typical that Mamet started his career ruthlessly dissecting masculinity's abject stupidity, and then wound up sucking Donald Trump's teats. We'll always have the good stuff, sure. If we were talking about his plays, I could come up with a list. The films of his that I've seen aren't worth the time they take to sit through.
These matters are best disposed of from a great height. Over water.
Well, he could be an idiot, for all I care.
01. Heist (2001)
02. Spartan (2004)
Mamet seen: 3
01. Heist (2001)
02. Spartan (2004)
Mamet seen: 3
"I too am a child burned by future experiences, fallen back on myself and already suspecting the certainty that in the end only those will prove benevolent who believe in nothing." – Marran Gosov
Lots of teats sucking on this thread.
I’ve only seen 2, so:
Homocide
I’ve only seen 2, so:
Homocide
house of games
redbelt
*seen four (glengarry glen ross is my actual fav mamet, except he didn't direct it; hated heist... 'everybody needs money. that's why they call it money,' has to be one of the dumbest lines ever written by a highly talented writer)
**semi-interesting sidenote: dude is an alumnus of (one of) my alma mater(s), which is something i'd totally forgotten about until now... wonder if he and william h. macy used to go skinny dipping in the rock quarry just like i used to
redbelt
*seen four (glengarry glen ross is my actual fav mamet, except he didn't direct it; hated heist... 'everybody needs money. that's why they call it money,' has to be one of the dumbest lines ever written by a highly talented writer)
**semi-interesting sidenote: dude is an alumnus of (one of) my alma mater(s), which is something i'd totally forgotten about until now... wonder if he and william h. macy used to go skinny dipping in the rock quarry just like i used to
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Monsieur Arkadin
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 5:56 pm
I like him as a writer. House of Games is all I've seen of his directing, and I felt that he managed to get the worst of all his actors (except maybe William H. Macy).
I read his book on directing years ago. I thought his ideas were provocative, but ultimately silly.
I read his book on directing years ago. I thought his ideas were provocative, but ultimately silly.
always viewed the acting in hog through a bressonian filter, the performers little more than mouthpieces for mamet's dialogue
Seen 15
The Spanish Prisoner
Homicide
House of Games
The Winslow Boy
Ricky Jay and His 52 Assistants
Things Change
State and Main
The Spanish Prisoner
Homicide
House of Games
The Winslow Boy
Ricky Jay and His 52 Assistants
Things Change
State and Main
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Monsieur Arkadin
- Posts: 421
- Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 5:56 pm
Agreed, at least in intent. It just doesn't seem to work for me. And it seems to often go against the very nature of some of the writing.always viewed the acting in hog through a bressonian filter, the performers little more than mouthpieces for mamet's dialogue
oscar, you can choose our next director if you want to!
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oscarwerner
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:13 am
- Contact:
With great pleasure:)
I offer Costa Gavras. My alternative is Norman Jewison. I have seen more then 10 movies of both directors.
I offer Costa Gavras. My alternative is Norman Jewison. I have seen more then 10 movies of both directors.
i've seen 9 from costa-gavras, so i'm sure he'll work - i'll start that poll now!
Seen 10
1988 Things Change
1987 House of Games
1999 The Winslow Boy
2004 Spartan
2008 Redbelt
1997 The Spanish Prisoner
1988 Things Change
1987 House of Games
1999 The Winslow Boy
2004 Spartan
2008 Redbelt
1997 The Spanish Prisoner
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oscarwerner
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:13 am
- Contact:
some time ago i had proposed Bertrand Tavernier as main director and Costa-Gavras as an alternative. Bertrand Tavernier worked that time, but i remember Costa-Gavras was chekced and he had enough audience and voters. Glad his time has come.
every mamet feature got at least one vote:
results
1. House of Games (1987) — 16 pts
2. Homicide (1991) — 14 pts
3. The Winslow Boy (1999) — 11 pts
4. Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants (1996) — 10 pts
5. Spartan (2004) — 9.1 pts
6. The Spanish Prisoner (1997) — 8 pts
6. Redbelt (2008) — 8 pts
8. Things Change (1988) — 6.5 pts
9. The Shield: “Strays” (2004) — 5 pts
10. State and Main (2000) — 4.8 pts
11. Oleanna (1994) — 3 pts
11. The Unit: “Security” (2006) — 3 pts
13. Heist (2001) — 2 pts
13. The Unit: “Old Home Week” (2006) — 2 pts
15. Two Painters (2010) — 0.3 pts
results
1. House of Games (1987) — 16 pts
2. Homicide (1991) — 14 pts
3. The Winslow Boy (1999) — 11 pts
4. Ricky Jay and his 52 Assistants (1996) — 10 pts
5. Spartan (2004) — 9.1 pts
6. The Spanish Prisoner (1997) — 8 pts
6. Redbelt (2008) — 8 pts
8. Things Change (1988) — 6.5 pts
9. The Shield: “Strays” (2004) — 5 pts
10. State and Main (2000) — 4.8 pts
11. Oleanna (1994) — 3 pts
11. The Unit: “Security” (2006) — 3 pts
13. Heist (2001) — 2 pts
13. The Unit: “Old Home Week” (2006) — 2 pts
15. Two Painters (2010) — 0.3 pts