SCFZ poll: Jonathan Demme

[flip]

Polling the films of director Jonathan Demme

The rules:

- your list can include no more than half of the Demme films you've seen, up to a maximum of 5. So if you've seen seven of his films, for example, you can list only a top 3. It's only if you've seen ten or more of his films than you can list the maximum of five.

- i'll assume ballots are ranked unless you tell me otherwise. unranked ballots are fine.

- deadline for ballots: next Tuesday, in seven days, whatever day that is

- if anyone is watching films for these polls, then i'll extend the deadline up to three days, if someone requests an extension

- next poll: whoever posts the first ballot in this thread is free to nominate the director we poll next, unless you've nominated in this round already (everyone should get a chance). Already nominated this round: greg x, wba, greennui, umbugbene, ofrene, mesnalty, john ryan, silga, mrcarmady, evelyn, nrh

umbugbene created an index on letterboxd of all of our previous polls here: letterboxd.com/umbugbene/list/index-of-all-scfz-director-polls/

one rule for nominees: at least 3 scfzers need to have seen 10+ of a nominee's films, or at least 4 scfzers need to have seen at least 8 of the nom's films, so if it isn't clear if that will be the case, we'll confirm that's true before moving forward

if 24 hours pass after a poll opens, and no one eligible to nominate has posted a ballot, then i'll nominate someone, and then we'll start over, and everyone will be able to nominate again

[flip]

Caged Heat
The Killing: Reckoning
The Killing: Eden
Stop Making Sense

seen 5, been meaning to see more though, feel fairly neutral about philadelphia and silence of the lambs which i was picking between for the second slot -- edit, seen 6, watched stop making sense... edit again: seen 8, didn't realize he directed some tv i'd seen

[greennui]

2.

Stop Making Sense

[Roscoe]

STOP MAKING SENSE
MELVIN AND HOWARD
SILENCE OF THE LAMBS

That's about right. Seen enough to rate more, and all that. Can't quite make up my mind about SILENCE, is it good enough to be on a best list. Certainly prefer it to the well-intentioned but leaden PHILADELPHIA, so I guess it'll stay for now.

[mesnalty]

Seen 5:

1. Stop Making Sense
2. Rachel Getting Married

[nrh]

melvin and howard
citizen's band
something wild
the manchurian candidate
storefront hitchcock

still need to see his 3 early exploitation movies and most of the docs, and should get around to that swing shift directors cut reassembly at some point

[oscarwerner]

Seen 9. My votes go to:
1. The Silence of the Lambs (1991)
2. Philadelphia (1993)
3. Rachel Getting Married (2008)
4. Stop Making Sense (1984)

[MrCarmady]

Seen five, four of them are really great.

1. Married to the Mob
2. Something Wild

Gonna watch another one to get Stop Making Sense on there.

[---]

Seen 3

Something wild

[john ryan]

seen 15

1. Something Wild
2. Rachel Getting Married
3. Melvin and Howard
4. Stop Making Sense
5. Married to the Mob

[ororama]

1. Melvin and Howard
2. Who Am I This Time?
3. Stop Making Sense
4. The Silence of the Lambs

I've seen 8.

[ofrene]

seen only 2

The Silence of the Lambs

[Holymanm]

Stop Making Sense

Seen three; liked all three! Might watch some of those music docs one day...

[...]

Swing Shift
Who am I This Time?
Something Wild
Rachel Getting Married
Last Embrace

Could have maybe put in Silence of the Lambs, but right now the continuing legacy of that movie has soured me on it some, and the way it uses Buffalo Bill as a contrast to Clarice's issues has some inherent issues that have become increasingly glaring over time, so II skipped it and Stop Making sense, which I quite enjoy, but find maybe less warranting of acclaim for Demme than it tends to get since so much of what works comes from the Talking Heads tour of '83, which the movie captures well, but the major inventiveness really isn't Demme's.

[Caracortada]

Seen 8.

1. Philadelphia
2. The Silence of the Lambs
3. Rachel Getting Married
4. Stop Making Sense

[Umbugbene]

Seen 3

1. Stop Making Sense

[Mauries]

Seen 4

Something Wild

[wba]

I love love love The Silence of the Lambs, which is way up there with only a handful of Hollywood films as a movie focusing singularly and solely on a woman protagonist and showing almost everything from her perspective. It's all about Clarice Starling, and the movie is in my opinion utterly and completely different from the book or any "Hannibal Lecter"-films before or after. For me personally, Buffallo Bill and Hannibal Lecter are mostly active as different fragments of her own (tormented) psyche, something that is also paralleled and refracted in the presence of Jack Crawford and Frederick Chilton, though in a different way. Basically, we have in the film a plethora of different "male" role models and different ways of showing and expressing the grounding misogyny of our patriarchal western societies. Starling is shown as being basically alone in this "male" world, but she tries resist all pressure from any of the perspectives to find and especially insist on her own identity, which she is able to discover in the end. There's a whole transformation going on with Starling between the beginning and end of the film, a bit like Alice who has fallen through the rabbit hole.
I can't say enough how much I adore this film.

01. The Silence of the Lambs (1991)

Demme seen: 2


PS: How the (brilliant-as-usual) Hopkins got a nomination for best actor for "Silence" is beyond me, as his role isn't even big enough for most supporting characters in most other movies. And it's telling that people tend to talk about him, when they talk about the movie, and tend to experience the film as something of a story that's in some way centered around him (when in fact it's anything but).

[...]

The problem with Silence is that its feminist take is inextricably a TERF transphobic one. Regardless of intent, there simply isn't a sensible way to ignore the thematic transphobia of the film, where Buffalo Bill is set up as a counter to Clarice and her relationship with Lecter based around ideas of identity and consumption in the US.

[MrCarmady]

I agree Silence of the Lambs is pretty damn transphobic when seen through a modern lens, but isn't that more of a generic transphobic trope in genre cinema? Not the same thing, but Norman Bates dresses as his mother, and a bunch of gialli have the gloved killer either be a woman disguised as a man or vice versa. Not saying that makes it OK, it's more like the racist depictions of Native Americans in Westerns - we either forgive them and enjoy Stagecoach (not that I do, personally) or Dressed to Kill (which I do, massively) or we don't. It's just a shorthand for 'The Other' which films use to create menace and suspense. And Silence, while it won't make my list because I love the 80s ones more, is one of the most tense and effective thrillers I've ever seen. Or is there a sort of statute of limitations on this, where we allow films from a certain era to be offensive to minorities but Silence is too recent to get away with it?

[thoxans]

something wild

*seen five (have caged heat, so might try to get to that for an even six before the poll ends)

[...]

but isn't that more of a generic transphobic trope in genre cinema?

That is a thing, certainly, but, for me, the added problem for Silence is how tightly Buffalo Bill is linked thematically to Clarice making it less just a generic ugly trope and more of an explicit denigration.

[wba]

The problem with Silence is that its feminist take is inextricably a TERF transphobic one. Regardless of intent, there simply isn't a sensible way to ignore the thematic transphobia of the film, where Buffalo Bill is set up as a counter to Clarice and her relationship with Lecter based around ideas of identity and consumption in the US.

I don't agree with that view, personally, as I don't think Buffalo Bill is set up to represent the/a transgender comunity, but is depicted as an individual (psychopath) and for me as a part of Clarice's psyche more than a fleshed out individual. The same applies to Lecter. And for me the whole film is not only queer as fuck but actually kinda trans, as Clarice, Bill and Hannibal all three explore a way of complete and utter transformation from what the constraints of patriarchal society tell them to be or represent, and - for me - the reason why Buffallo Bill and Lecter fail is equally because "male"/Patriarchal society doesn't allow them the/a way out as well as because they resort to violence and violating the identity of others. Something which Clarice refrains from (as well as having a privileged position as an FBI agent).

[Silga]

Seen 4:

The Silence of the Lambs
The Manchurian Candidate

[Evelyn Library P.I.]

Thank you, greg, for holding up the Pride flag in all its colours. Really appreciate it.

[rischka]

seen 9 -- i'll throw a vote to

1. something wild (seen countless times on cable in the 90s!)

[MrCarmady]

Seen five, four of them are really great.

1. Married to the Mob
2. Something Wild

Gonna watch another one to get Stop Making Sense on there.

Melvin and Howard was cute but nowhere near the level of these later movies, not nearly enough Jason Robards.

1. Married to the Mob
2. Something Wild
3. Stop Making Sense

Might give Caged Heat a try.

[MrCarmady]

flip, can I vote for this?

https://letterboxd.com/film/new-order-the-perfect-kiss/

Long been a favourite but I completely blanked on it being directed by him.

[flip]

yes, fine to vote for short films etc, would only be a bit reluctant to count votes for tv episodes that aren't on letterboxd, though there's no rule about that either (and i've voted for at least one of those myself, probably more, don't always check). if the director directed something and it's on letterboxd, it's pretty much always eligible for poll voting.

[flip]

That's about right.

roscoe, you can pick our next director if you want!