Doubling the Canon 2020 Update - Results

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Angel
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Doubling the Canon 2020 Update - Results

Post by Angel »

Welcome to our annual update.

What is this?
Begun in 2007, Doubling the Canon is a yearly project which aims to expand the Film Canon as crafted by the They Shoot Pictures, Don't They? website. Originally it was a selection of 1000 movies to complement the TSPDT Top 1000, now it is a list of 1000-1250 which complements both the all time Top 1000 and the companion TSPDT Top 1000 of the 21st century.

Who can participate?
Anyone can join. Requirement for newbies: Please note that you will be requested to identify yourself, just to make sure that the poll is answered (only once) by cinephiles of good will.

Where?
In this thread.
In the ICMForum thread: https://forum.icmforum.com/viewtopic.ph ... 03#p625603
Via e-mail: doublingthecanon@hotmail.com

What is new in this update?
Any film that is newly admitted to the Doubled Canon must be subjected to a revote after 5 years, so we're going to revote the 2015 entries.

2019 update:
https://scfzforum.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=108

Phase I: Nominations for titles not on either the TSPDT lists or the Doubling list.
Deadline: March 27
Each participant can nominate a maximum of 12 films. Shorts, TV-movies, and TV mini-series are eligible. Every nominated movie goes onto the roster as a nominee. Films released in 2019-20 aren't allowed this year for our exercise.

Along with a list of the titles, please include the corresponding list of bare IMDb urls for the same films.

Please, don't edit your post! To change your ballot (undesirable) or add new titles you have to write a new reply.

Phase II: Ratings.
You're invited to rate the films you have seen (whether you have participated in the phase I or not). The nominees with the highest ratings make it into our list.
You can cast your votes anytime between now and Thursday, April 30. Only 'write-in' updates will be accepted after the deadline.
Please, sign your ballot. Example: This is Angel Glez.

Rating system:
6=All time top 600
5=All time top 601-1,200
4=All time top 1,201-1,800
3=All time top 1,801-2,400
2=It's a good movie, but not special enough to deserve placement in a 2,400-movie canon
1=It's an average movie, far from good enough to deserve placement on this list
0=I dislike this movie
Note: The cutoff was 3.91 last year. That means a 3 does not really help a film make the list.

Procedure 1: Just download the ballot (if you prefer I can send you the file) and email it back to me (doublingthecanon@hotmail.com)
DDL: https://we.tl/t-qZwrEA2V0n
Procedure 2: Online (PM me for details)

Don't remove anything, don't reorder. Untouched ballot with ratings, please.

After submitting your ballot, post a reply here to make sure I received the file. You can also add comments or statistics if you wish.

Early ballots would be appreciated. Then, if you watch new films or forgot to rate some, send me a 'write-in' ballot.

Thank you in advance for joining us in this game.

P.S.: If you know anyone adventurous enough (on or off the forum) that you think would also enjoy participating, feel free to invite them as well.


***************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

RESULTS (ongoing)

Google Docs

ICMForum

DtC 2020 IMDB List

DtC 2020 Letterboxd List
Last edited by Angel on Wed May 13, 2020 8:02 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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Last edited by Angel on Wed Feb 26, 2020 9:05 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Last edited by Angel on Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:22 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by sally »

oh god. i'm so confused with what i like now compared to what i liked when i watched certain movies, that i can't imagine picking 12 out from all that mess, so not going to participate in phase 1 unless something urgent occurs to me.

i will however, after completely failing to for a few years now, vote in phase 2, so if anyone wants me to watch & vote for their movies please make available (if not already)! thanks and looking forward to it
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Post by rischka »

yay sally's voting again!!
:lboxd: + ICM + :imdb:

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Angel
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Post by Angel »

twodeadmagpies wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 12:47 pm oh god. i'm so confused with what i like now compared to what i liked when i watched certain movies, that i can't imagine picking 12 out from all that mess, so not going to participate in phase 1 unless something urgent occurs to me.

i will however, after completely failing to for a few years now, vote in phase 2, so if anyone wants me to watch & vote for their movies please make available (if not already)! thanks and looking forward to it
Phase I is the spice of Doubling because there is no a right way (at least I don't know it).
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sally
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Post by sally »

Angel wrote: Sun Feb 23, 2020 8:10 pm
Phase I is the spice of Doubling because there is no a right way (at least I don't know it).

okay okay i'll submit some films :D

this is always the point where i realise TSPDT is not as incredibly boring as i think it is
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Post by ofrene »

:lboxd:
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Post by brian d »

Last edited by brian d on Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Most esteemed biographer of Peter Barrington Hutton"
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sally
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Post by sally »

angel, do you think it's worth me nominating the black cat again? how has it fared in the past? did it get close? (the list needs more ulmer and béla) but if it's a total waste of time i might as well nominate something else

also if anyone has english subs for valurile dunării i'd appreciate it (that'll teach me to miss a match in a mubi cup ten years ago)
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Post by Angel »

Only two Ulmers made the DtC list at some point: The Black Cat (years ago, at the very beginning of the exercise) and The Naked Dawn.

Recent figures for The Black Cat: 3.36 in 2017, 3.37 in 2014 (cutoff=3.91). I fully agree with you, but it seems a lost cause. In fact it was a nomination of mine in 2014.
  • A brief history of my failures:
    Aakrosh [Cry of the Wounded] (1980)
    Ala-Arriba! (1942)
    Al-ard (1969)
    Bal na vodi [Hey Babu Riba] (1985)
    Battement de coeur [Beating Heart] (1940)
    Blood Money (1933)
    Body Heat (1981)
    Daens (1992)
    Dalu (1935)
    Dead Time: Kala (2007)
    Der verlorene Sohn (1934)
    Det hemmelighedsfulde X (1914)
    Die goldene Stadt [The Golden City] (1942)
    Døden er et kjærtegn (1949)
    Due soldi di speranza (1952)
    Dynamite (1929)
    Ekstase (1933)
    El Norte (1983)
    Ercole alla conquista di Atlantide (1961)
    Erotikon (1929)
    Es geschah am hellichten Tag (1958)
    Fährmann Maria (1936)
    Femmine insaziabili [Carnal Circuit] (1969)
    Geomeun meori [Black Hair] (1964)
    Gli uomini, che mascalzoni... (1932)
    Heartland (1979)
    Heimkehr (1928)
    Il cavaliere misterioso (1948)
    Il lupo della Sila (1949)
    Il sole negli occhi (1953)
    Imitation of Life (1934)
    Je ne suis pas là pour être aimé [Not Here to Be Loved] (2005)
    Joe Hill (1971)
    La noche de los girasoles [The Night of the Sunflowers] (2006)
    La ragazza in vetrina (1961)
    La torre de los siete jorobados (1944)
    Laskar pelangi [The Rainbow Troops] (2008)
    Le pacte des loups (2001)
    L'équipage (1935)
    Les aventuriers [The Last Adventure] (1967)
    Les mille et une mains [A Thousand and One Hands] (1973)
    L'homme de Rio (1964)
    Mabu (1961)
    Milano calibro 9 (1972)
    Mirch Masala (1987)
    Mountains of the Moon (1990)
    Much Loved (2015)
    Nacht fiel über Gotenhafen (1960)
    Nacionalna klasa [National Class Category Up to 785 Ccm] (1979)
    Nezabyvayemoye (1967)
    Ohm Krüger [Uncle Kruger] (1941)
    Otobüs (1975)
    Pale Rider (1985)
    Pan Twardowski (1936)
    Peesua lae dokmai (1985)
    Pranzo di ferragosto (2008)
    Running Wild (1927)
    San Mao liu lang ji (1949)
    Sandakan hachibanshokan bohkyo (1974)
    Selvi boylum, al yazmalim (1978)
    Senza pietà (1948)
    Shôwa zankyô-den: Karajishi jingi [The Man with the Dragon Tattoo] (1969)
    Silver Lode (1954)
    Star in the Dust (1956)
    Steamboat Round the Bend (1935)
    Sur mes lèvres (2001)
    Tatlong taong walang Diyos (1976)
    Tau ban no hoi (1982)
    Terminal Island (1973)
    The Black Cat (1934)
    The Chase (1946)
    The China Syndrome (1979)
    The Doctor (1991)
    The Godless Girl (1929)
    The Good Heart (2009)
    The Hitch-Hiker (1953)
    The Last Valley (1971)
    The Lives of a Bengal Lancer (1935)
    The Mating Call (1928)
    The Railway Children (1970)
    The Silent Partner (1978)
    The Untouchables (1987)
    The Well (1951)
    Tredowata (1936)
    Tsuki wa noborinu (1955)
    Ulisse (1954)
    Un été à La Goulette (1996)
    Une liaison pornographique (1999)
    Union Pacific (1939)
    Vesikali yarim (1968)
    Wild Oranges (1924)
    You Can't Take It with You (1938)
    Zugvögel - ... einmal nach Inari (1998)
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Post by flip »

Punching the Clown (Gregory Viens) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1192624/
A Few Kilos of Dates for a Funeral (Saman Salur) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0922379/
The Beach (Patrick Bokanowski) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0311654/
Sanctus (Barbara Hammer) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0141800/
36 Hours (George Seaton) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057809/
Reality (Quentin Dupieux) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2392672/
Filantropica (Nae Caranfil) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0314067/
Buttoners (Petr Zelenka) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0128292/
Mandala (Im Kwon-taek) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082704/
Showdown (RG Springsteen) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057497/
The Wonderful Country (Robert Parrish) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0053453/
It's a Date (William Seiter) -- https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032644/
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Post by sally »

alright i can't spend ages worrying about this. and i was going with the trenker anyway! let's hope i have better luck with it

Roundhay Garden Scene (1888) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0392728/
Orlacs Hände (1924) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0015202/
Bardelys the Magnificent (1926) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0016627/
Le joueur d'échecs (1927) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0018045/
Fräulein Else (1929) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0019909/
Der verlorene Sohn (1934) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0025943/
Zvejnieka dēls (1939) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3893510/
Afsporet (1942) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034435/
Nazaré (1952) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044957/
Budapesti tavasz (1955) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047903/
Sluzhebnyy roman (1977) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076727/
Kosh ba kosh (1993) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107340/
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Post by Mauries »

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Post by Silga »

1. Hyènes (Djibril Diop Mambéty, 1992) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104467/
2. They Drive by Night (Raoul Walsh, 1940) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0033149/
3. Affliction (Paul Schrader, 1997) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118564/
4. Watchmen (Zack Snyder, 2009) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0409459/
5. The Reflecting Skin (Philip Ridley, 1990) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100469/
6. The Naked Kiss (Samuel Fuller, 1964) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058390/
7. The Grey Fox (Phillip Borsos, 1982) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085622/
8. Prometheus (Ridley Scott, 2012) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1446714/
9. Lovers of the Arctic Circle (Julio Medem, 1998) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0133363/
10. The Heart Is a Lonely Hunter (Robert Ellis Miller, 1968) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063050/
11. The Last Days of Disco (Whit Stillman, 1998) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120728/
12. I Served the King of England (Jirí Menzel, 2006) - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0284363/
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Post by greennui »

Mauries wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:32 pm Un uomo a metà (1966) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059850
That one's already in the canon, you've got 2 slots free now seeing as you only nominated 11.
brian d wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:42 am salt for svanetia (mikhail kalatozov) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0019403/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Already in the canon, 1 slot free. :)
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Post by MrCarmady »

This is exciting! Always liked this list and now I get a chance to plug my underappreciated favs (though few of these are really that underappreciated, surprised many of them aren't on the list already).
So the rule is just - 12 films that are not on (a) TSPDT's top 1000; (b) TSPDT's top of the 21st century; (c) in the canon already, right?

If I'm wrong please tell me.

Do lok tin si (1995) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112913/
4 aventures de Reinette et Mirabelle (1987) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090565/
Az én XX. századom (1989) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096863/
Il tuo vizio è una stanza chiusa e solo io ne ho la chiave (1972) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069421/
Liebe ist kälter als der Tod (1969) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064588/
Speed Racer (2008) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0811080/
Times Square (1980) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081635/
Amateur (1994) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109093/
Barcelona (1994) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109219/
Vampire's Kiss (1988) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098577/
Wonderland (1999) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0171865/
Giù la testa (1971) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0067140/
"...have you actually seen any movies?" ~ DT
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Angel
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Post by Angel »

Last call, ladies and gentlemen! 1 day left.
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Post by Angel »

grabmymask wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 4:53 pm The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo (2011): https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1568346/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Already nominated (TSPDT drop-off), so you've got a free slot.
greennui wrote: Sun Mar 01, 2020 11:05 am
Mauries wrote: Thu Feb 27, 2020 6:32 pm Un uomo a metà (1966) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059850
That one's already in the canon, you've got 2 slots free now seeing as you only nominated 11.
brian d wrote: Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:42 am salt for svanetia (mikhail kalatozov) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0019403/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0
Already in the canon, 1 slot free. :)
Just a reminder.
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Angel
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Post by Angel »

So the whole thing looks like this

Please check (no later than today) for any mistakes.
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Mauries
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Post by Mauries »

I'll add one more and leave one spot open:

Mizu no naka no hachigatsu [August in the Water] (1995) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113834/

Edit: oh sorry, looks like I was too late!
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Angel
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Post by Angel »

Call for Votes! Final Phase of the Poll!

in this second and final phase we invite all doublers (whether you nominated films in the first phase or not; all members are welcome to vote) to rate the nominated films. Please click here to discover the 1333 candidates and cast your vote. Deadline is Thursday, April 30.

Ballot DDL: https://we.tl/t-qgDXBwIKdu
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Post by rischka »

yay thx angel will try to work on this :)
:lboxd: + ICM + :imdb:

ANTIFA 4-EVA

CAUTION: woman having opinions
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Post by Angel »

Weekly Status Report

The players (16+2):
beasterne
beavis
brian d
Carmel1379
ChrisReynolds
Cocoa
connordenney
joachimt
jvv
Onderhond
Perception de Ambiguity
pitchorneirda
Pretentious Hipster
rnilsson19
Silga
sol
+
a sxc file that I’m unable to open
a newbie

Average number of voted films per voter and average rating overall:
317-3,21

Top voters:
beavis-641
Pretentious Hipster-559
Perception de Ambiguity-542
joachimt-520

Highest average rating:
Silga-4,45
beasterne-4,13
Carmel1379-3,98
rnilsson19-3,67

Lowest average rating:
Cocoa-1,93
connordenney-2,74
Onderhond-2,77
pitchorneirda-2,84

Most voted films of each decade:
L'arrivée d'un train à La Ciotat-15
Les Kiriki, acrobates japonais-7
Suspense-13
Kurutta ippêji-12
The Invisible Man-11
Le tempestaire-10
Duck Amuck-14
Mothlight-13
Invasion of the Body Snatchers-14
Vincent-14
Lola rennt-15
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl-16
Prisoners-14

Nominator of the highest rated films with at least 4 votes:
Onderhond
Labraxas
DtC 2015
DtC 2019
beavis
weirdboy
TSPDT
toromash
Carmel1379
Mauries

Lowest rated films with at least 4 votes:
Rang De Basanti
The Wanderers
Astérix & Obélix: Mission Cléopâtre
Plastic Bag
Happy Feet

Films without a single vote (excluding its nominator):
  • 48
    5 Steps to Danger
    A Bread Factory, Part One
    A Bread Factory, Part Two
    A Intrusa
    Above and Beyond
    Abuse
    Agnès de ci de là Varda
    Ahdat sanawovach el-djamr
    Ai no onimotsu
    Alice
    Alone in the Wilderness Part II
    Along the Great Divide
    Amore tossico
    Anak dalita
    Árvácska
    Babel - lettre à mes amis restés en Belgique
    Backlash
    Bako, l'autre rive
    Bang the Drum Slowly
    Bardelys the Magnificent
    Beed-o baad
    Bellavista
    Bent
    Berlin um die Ecke
    Besat
    Bill Wurtz's History Documentaries: History of the Entire World, I Guess
    Blauvogel
    Budapesti tavasz
    Bungalow
    Butter
    Call It Sleep
    Cesta zpátky
    Cheriyachante Kroora Krithyangal
    Christus
    Come Fill the Cup
    Cowboy
    Das Beil von Wandsbek
    Days of Waiting
    Dead Souls
    Den store barnedåpen
    Der Hund von Baskerville
    Dernières nouvelles du cosmos
    Die andere Seite
    Die beste aller welten
    Die innere Sicherheit
    Die Legende von Paul und Paula
    Die letzten Tage von Gomorrha
    Die Rote
    Die Unsichtbare
    Do zan
    Eien no hito
    El lugar más pequeño
    Et Resurrectus Est
    Falkens öga
    Femmefille
    Gaebyeok
    Ginza 24 chou
    Golem
    Gubben i stugan
    Gunhamdo
    Hamlet liikemaailmassa
    Harry & Son
    Hassel - Privatspanarna
    Hjertestart
    Hotarubi
    Huoshan Qingxie
    Idö van
    Il brigante
    Il cappotto
    Il dono
    Il tradimento
    Io non ho paura
    It's a Date
    Jerichow
    Joe Leahy's Neighbours
    John Adams
    Jostoju
    Judaspengar
    Julia
    Justice
    Kaki kôba
    Karla
    Kiiroi karasu
    Kler
    Knoflíkári
    Kôfuku no kane
    Kôge - Ichibu: Waremokô no shô
    Kôge - Nibu: Mitsumata no shô
    Kosh ba kosh
    La casa Emak Bakia
    La femme défendue
    La gale
    La glace et le ciel
    La guerre est déclarée
    La marcia su Roma
    La provinciale
    La veuve Couderc
    La vita agra
    L'autre
    L'autre rive
    Le joueur d'échecs
    Le mirage
    Lebensläufe
    Lee's Adventure
    Les coeurs verts
    Les doigts dans la tête
    Les grandes gueules
    Les quatre soeurs
    Leve blant løver
    Lord of the Dance/Destroyer of Illusion
    Lucky Jo
    Lucky People Center International
    Mania
    Más allá del olvido
    Massillon
    Menashe
    Mixed Blood
    Mon roi
    Mononoke
    Naktibalda
    Nastroyshchik
    Nebulosan
    No End in Sight
    Noktirne
    Nyfes
    O Primeiro Dia
    Obsluhoval jsem anglického krále
    Once More
    Onna bakari no yoru
    Orlando furioso
    Palio
    Perinbaba
    Pod severnym siyaniyem
    Post Mortem
    Priko sinjeg mora
    Print Generation
    Processo alla città
    Provincetown Pieces
    Puccini e la fanciulla
    Punching the Clown
    Pushwagner
    Qortsili
    Ragbar
    Rahm
    Resan till Melonia
    Retour à l'aube
    Rotation
    Safe Condition, Document in the Past Perfect
    Sarangbang sonnimgwa eomeoni
    Section spéciale
    Seed
    Semnadtsat mgnoveniy vesny
    Serebryanye golovy
    Shahr-e ziba
    Siglo ng pagluluwal
    Skazanie o zemle sibirskoy
    Sophie's Place
    Struggle
    Szerelmesfilm
    Tab Hunter Confidential
    Tableau noir
    Tang shi
    Tempos Difíceis
    Tender Is the Night
    Terror by Night
    Testament
    The Dawn Patrol
    The Fall
    The Handmaid's Tale
    The Last Flight
    The Life of Reilly
    The Long Memory
    The Spieler
    The Story of Dr. Wassell
    The Vietnam War
    The Visitation
    Theeviravaathi: The Terrorist
    Threnody
    Through an Open Window
    Tiger in the Smoke
    Tout un hiver sans feu
    Trial
    Trois chambres à Manhattan
    Trouble the Water
    T's World: The Over Identification of Terry Thompson
    Tsuma to shite onna to shite
    Tulipunainen kyyhkynen
    Uçurtmayi Vurmasinlar
    Udaan
    Ulica Graniczna
    Un homme marche dans la ville
    Un singe en hiver
    Une vie ailleurs
    Uppehåll i myrlandet
    Vratné lahve
    Wechma
    Who Am I - Kein System ist sicher
    XIX saukunis qartuli qronika
    YMO Propaganda
    Zanjin zanbaken
    Závrat
    Zéfiro
    Zhit
    Zugvögel - ... einmal nach Inari
    Zvejnieka dels

Breakdown of votes for L'arrivée d'un train à La Ciotat*:
beasterne-4
beavis-0
brian d-5
Carmel1379-3
ChrisReynolds-2
Cocoa-2
connordenney-2
joachimt-2
jvv-4
Onderhond-0
Perception de Ambiguity-1
pitchorneirda-2
Pretentious Hipster-2
rnilsson19-4
sol-0
(please check for any mistakes)
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flip
Posts: 3472
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:07 am
Location: montreal

Post by flip »

i've started rating films for this. two observations about the process this year:

- having director names in the spreadsheet is extremely useful, some films i know immediately i haven't seen because the director is unfamiliar

- not having english titles in the spreadsheet is making the process inordinately time-consuming. in past years the title was always listed in english and its original language, if i remember correctly. but now, seeing, say, a shimizu film in the list, i have no idea if i've seen it or not without looking the film up on another website. unless a voter speaks japanese or swedish or persian, i have to think that voter would prefer to see a title in english, so they might recognize the film immediately.
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brian d
Posts: 790
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:00 am

Post by brian d »

having already rated the films, i'd agree with flip, especially on the second point. i was having to copy-past the imdb links to see the name of the film, then check in letterboxd to see if i'd seen some of them and to refresh my memory to how much i liked them. it was a lot of back and forth that made it a bit frustrating. but yes, the director names was extremely helpful.
"Most esteemed biographer of Peter Barrington Hutton"
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rischka
Posts: 6586
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:43 am
Location: desert usa
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Post by rischka »

weren't the imdb links clickable before too? i've only rated the A's so far :shhh: sry angel, i know you're doing this on your own and we appreciate you!! will work on this some more today
Last edited by rischka on Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
:lboxd: + ICM + :imdb:

ANTIFA 4-EVA

CAUTION: woman having opinions
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flip
Posts: 3472
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2018 7:07 am
Location: montreal

Post by flip »

that's exactly what i'm doing right now! (edit - replying to brian d) i opened the spreadsheet in google docs thinking the urls would be links that i could just click and i could do everything within my browser, but that's not the case, i have to copy/paste, and i haven't rated everything on imdb so after visiting a film there i'm often going to letterboxd too.
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