SCFZ poll: Carol Reed

[flip]

Polling the films of director Carol Reed

The rules:

- your list can include no more than half of the Reed films you've seen, up to a maximum of 5. So if you've seen seven of his films, for example, you can list only a top 3. It's only if you've seen ten or more of his films than you can list the maximum of five.

- i'll assume ballots are ranked unless you tell me otherwise. unranked ballots are fine.

- deadline for ballots: next Tuesday, in seven days, whatever day that is

- if anyone is watching films for these polls, then i'll extend the deadline up to three days, if someone requests an extension

- next poll: whoever posts the first ballot in this thread is free to nominate the director we poll next, unless you've nominated in this round already (everyone should get a chance). Already nominated this round: wba, greg x, ofrene, greennui, evelyn, bure, mesnalty, umbugbene, roscoe, st gloede, brian d, kanafani, silga, oscarwerner, dt., nrh, arkheia, grabmymask, thoxans, john ryan, liquidnature

umbugbene created an index on letterboxd of all of our previous polls here: letterboxd.com/umbugbene/list/index-of-all-scfz-director-polls/

one rule for nominees: at least 3 scfzers need to have seen 10+ of a nominee's films, or at least 4 scfzers need to have seen at least 8 of the nom's films, so if it isn't clear if that will be the case, we'll confirm that's true before moving forward

if 24 hours pass after a poll opens, and no one eligible to nominate has posted a ballot, then i'll nominate someone, and then we'll start over, and everyone will be able to nominate again

[flip]

Night Train to Munich

seen three

[Umbugbene]

Seen 11

1. The Third Man
2. Our Man in Havana
3. Girl in the News
4. Night Train to Munich
5. Public Eye

[oscarwerner]

Seen 12
1. The Third Man (1949)
2. The Fallen Idol (1948)
3. Odd Man Out (1947)
4. Oliver! (1968)
5. The Agony and the Ecstasy (1965)
I know somebody will laugh about Oliver:), but i saw this musical as a school kid. In original english language, it made impression with high quality. And since then i saw many interpretations of Oliver Twist novel and i always understand that musical was the best genre for this novel. Carol Reed musical was the best form for adaptation for this story and i still remember some songs. Ron Moody was nice Fagin and his song "Reviewing the Situation" -so nice and funny:)

[Roscoe]

THE THIRD MAN

Seen more. This is just by far the best. There are some glimmers here and there in OUR MAN IN HAVANA, but that NIGHT TRAIN TO MUNICH is a waste, and the fuss over that FALLEN IDOL thing is inexplicable to me. If generosity strikes, I too might add OLIVER for being probably the last musical made with any sense at all for way too long.

[kanafani]

Night Train to Munich
the Third Man

[---]

unordered

Third Man
A Kid for Two Farthings

seen 4

[wba]

01. Odd Man Out (1947)

Reed seen: 2

[liquidnature]

The Fallen Idol

gonna try to catch a couple more for the poll if I can find the time

[rischka]

i have 7 so will watch the stars look down. ty for the links! i actually enjoyed oliver! as a kid too lol.

[...]

Our Man in Havana
The Third Man
Bank Holiday
The Agony and the Ecstasy
A Kid for Two Farthings

I like Reed. Of the 11 films I've seen of his, there are a good variety of stories handled in different ways, some more serious some rather crassly commercial, but almost all with a nice mix of tones and all at least have strong scenes and manage to keep me interested in even the more absurd goings on in the more commercial works. Reed seems to find some idea(s) in themes to play with, even when the main story can't be taken seriously on its face value. The tones of his films sometimes seem to put some off for sometimes not being quite what one might expect (Like A Kid for Two Farthings or Our Man in Havana) or for accepting what one might have hoped he wouldn't (Like in Trapeze or The Agony and the Ecstasy). Reed's handling of the actor/character's emotional expression is kinda unusual for allowing the emotions to be generally understated but with occasional scenes of emotional volatility or excess that can find echo in some of the visuals. I like it but can sorta see why some don't.

[Caracortada]

Seen 6

1. The Third Man
2. Our Man in Havana
3. Oliver!

[rischka]

ok i lied i've watched a fun gold diggers/stage door style musical comedy with margaret lockwood instead. a girl must live

outcast of the islands
night train to munich
the third man
odd man out

[brian d]

seen 7

outcast of the islands
the third man
our man in havana

[karl]

Hey, some love for Outcast of the Islands.

of 7:

Outcast of the Islands
The Way Ahead
Third Man

[ofrene]

seen 2

The Third Man

[flip]

Seen 6

caracortada, you can pick the director we poll next if you like!

[john ryan]

seen 15

1. odd man out
2. the third man
3. outcast of the islands
4. trapeze
5. the key

[Evelyn Library P.I.]

Only seen 2, wanted to watch a couple more but doesn't look like I'll have time just now, especially since '35 is so bountiful. Third Man is forever one of my all-time favourite classics, for the record, but figured I'd vote for a film I like a lot that might find support harder to come by, so...

1. Night Train to Munich (1940)

[wba]

I'm baffled to see all this love for The Third Man. One of those classics I just never could get the appeal of.
I've seen it numerous times, and I guess I'll try again sometime in the future.

Maybe it has something to do with Joseph Cotton's character being almost as much of an asshole as Orson Welles's, and all that male obsession and macho stuff?
Anybody got a write-up to an illuminating view which isn't similar to most what's been written about the film?

Edit: I just noticed that I haven't yet seen a Graham Green adaptation that I've enjoyed, and most of the male characters in any of them get on my nerves big time. So it might be something interconnected...

[Evelyn Library P.I.]

I'm baffled to see all this love for The Third Man.

Maybe it has something to do with Joseph Cotton's character being almost as much of an asshole as Orson Welles's, and all that male obsession and macho stuff?
Anybody got a write-up to an illuminating view which isn't similar to most what's been written about the film?

Definitely don't evaluate Joseph Cotten's character as morally comparable to Orson Welles's, given that Welles is literally murdering children for money (admittedly a bit on the nose). The ending of the film, for me, does a good job of dealing with the moral complexity of Cotten's character; I think the movie clearly wants us to see Cotten's romantic interest as obsessional and condescending, as a moral risk/problem, but even if it doesn't, there are a lot of other reasons to like the movie.

Above all I see the film as cynical not in the sense that it thinks morality is untrue but in the sense that it thinks morality is unpopular and, in this life, unrewarding, but nonetheless incumbent on us. And I find myself pretty sympathetic with that sentiment. This is all mapped, albeit a bit programmatically, onto the 'scape of the post-WWII Europe in ways that I find really interesting. Holly, "Christ's thorn," is mocked for his U.S. western novels with their belief in morality, but triumphs over rubble-induced cynicism (and canted angles) to win the western showdown in the Hades-esque moral underbelly sewer of Vienna (and restore the camera to being level), all while sadly being saddled with the ending to the western novel he never wanted for himself, the hero left alone with his sunset, etc. None of this would work very well if it wasn't well-acted, well-directed, etc., but Reed and company really pull it off, in my view

- but, of course, everyone's going to have plenty of classics that don't work for them for various reasons, and I definitely don't want to imply you should like the film, just accounting for why it works for me.

[Caracortada]

Seen 6

caracortada, you can pick the director we poll next if you like!

If it's not too late I would like to pick Robert Wise!

[St. Gloede]

Seen 10, but yet to catch Our Man in Havana, and now I apparently have to!

1. Odd Man Out
2. The Third Man
3. The Man Between
4. Trapeze
5. Mutiny on the Bounty

[flip]

it turns out after my move i'm going to have almost no internet access for a few days, so i'm not going to tally any polls until next week - but i'll start up the robert wise poll now at least - interesting choice!

[wba]

I'm baffled to see all this love for The Third Man.

Maybe it has something to do with Joseph Cotton's character being almost as much of an asshole as Orson Welles's, and all that male obsession and macho stuff?
Anybody got a write-up to an illuminating view which isn't similar to most what's been written about the film?

Definitely don't evaluate Joseph Cotten's character as morally comparable to Orson Welles's, given that Welles is literally murdering children for money (admittedly a bit on the nose). The ending of the film, for me, does a good job of dealing with the moral complexity of Cotten's character; I think the movie clearly wants us to see Cotten's romantic interest as obsessional and condescending, as a moral risk/problem, but even if it doesn't, there are a lot of other reasons to like the movie.

Above all I see the film as cynical not in the sense that it thinks morality is untrue but in the sense that it thinks morality is unpopular and, in this life, unrewarding, but nonetheless incumbent on us. And I find myself pretty sympathetic with that sentiment. This is all mapped, albeit a bit programmatically, onto the 'scape of the post-WWII Europe in ways that I find really interesting. Holly, "Christ's thorn," is mocked for his U.S. western novels with their belief in morality, but triumphs over rubble-induced cynicism (and canted angles) to win the western showdown in the Hades-esque moral underbelly sewer of Vienna (and restore the camera to being level), all while sadly being saddled with the ending to the western novel he never wanted for himself, the hero left alone with his sunset, etc. None of this would work very well if it wasn't well-acted, well-directed, etc., but Reed and company really pull it off, in my view

- but, of course, everyone's going to have plenty of classics that don't work for them for various reasons, and I definitely don't want to imply you should like the film, just accounting for why it works for me.

Yeah, I can understand that one can enjoy the film. But to love it that much, and so many people admire it?

I also don't get the ending. Never understood it. Why is Cotton standing there waiting for Welles' girlfriend? He just finished him off, and has harassed her throughout the film. He could have tried to apologize to her or talk to her or something (although all that could have been said between them had already been said before in the film), but he waits there (seemingly specifically for Valli to pass by) just stands there, mocking her. What, he wants to show the viewer what an asshole he is once and for all? What is that ending?

[sally]

seen 6

outcast of the islands
the stars look down
our man in havana

[Roscoe]

I also don't get the ending. Never understood it. Why is Cotton standing there waiting for Welles' girlfriend? He just finished him off, and has harassed her throughout the film. He could have tried to apologize to her or talk to her or something (although all that could have been said between them had already been said before in the film), but he waits there (seemingly specifically for Valli to pass by) just stands there, mocking her. What, he wants to show the viewer what an asshole he is once and for all? What is that ending?

So what's happened is that Cotten's Holly Martins, a clueless American hack writer who has uncovered a plot that eluded the Allied forces in Vienna involving his childhood friend Harry Lime the smuggler and general scumbag, having made a deal to keep Alida Valli's Anna out of the hands of the Russians, thinks that she might overlook Holly's betrayal of the amoral Harry Lime and be all grateful, giving him and the movie the kind of ending he'd supply in one of the pulp Westerns he's a famed author of. He's just exactly clueless and romantic enough to think so -- and she's the one who mocks his expectations by walking right the fuck by, not even giving him a glance. That's what that ending is.

[Evelyn Library P.I.]

So what's happened is that Cotten's Holly Martins, a clueless American hack writer who has uncovered a plot that eluded the Allied forces in Vienna involving his childhood friend Harry Lime the smuggler and general scumbag, having made a deal to keep Alida Valli's Anna out of the hands of the Russians, thinks that she might overlook Holly's betrayal of the amoral Harry Lime and be all grateful, giving him and the movie the kind of ending he'd supply in one of the pulp Westerns he's a famed author of. He's just exactly clueless and romantic enough to think so -- and she's the one who mocks his expectations by walking right the fuck by, not even giving him a glance. That's what that ending is.

Yes! Well said, Roscoe! I'd add that the ending he gets is arguably, at least as I see it, a fitting ending to a western story, just of a different kind. The hero leaves town, without a sweetheart or other ties that bind, alone with the sunset along the dusty trail. It's like the lonesome ending of The Searchers or Seven Men from Now, only of course a Searchers-style ending isn't the one Holly envisioned for himself or would write for himself, it's the one Anna decides, and that's part of what makes it poignant and interesting, for me.

[wba]

But if we can agree that Cotton's character is basically a (clueless) asshole, then doesn't that imply that he's not "the hero" of the film? So how can it be a fitting ending, even if we suppose that "the hero" walks out of town alone? I mean John Wayne, as bad as he is in the Searchers at least partially and somewhat redeems himself in the eyes of some of the other protagonists in the film (if maybe not for the viewer). Cotton doesn't. And as I wrote, I thought everything that could be said had already been said between Cotton's character and Valli's character. She clearly showed him that she had no interest in him whatsoever, and more than that, that she loved Welles and basically disapproved of Cotton's actions (or have I somehting wrong here, and misunderstood their conversations?). If that is the case, then what does Cotton expect at the end, after he killed Valli's ex? "Hello girl, I 've harassed you and somewhat blackmailed you, I just killed the guy you loved, and as you're coming from his funeral, how about we hit it off now?" I mean that honestly can't be the (implied) meaning of the ending!?!? Cotton's character is somewhat naive and something of an idiot, but he is also perceptive and intelligent and has a brain.

[Roscoe]

But if we can agree that Cotton's character is basically a (clueless) asshole, then doesn't that imply that he's not "the hero" of the film? So how can it be a fitting ending, even if we suppose that "the hero" walks out of town alone? I mean John Wayne, as bad as he is in the Searchers at least partially and somewhat redeems himself in the eyes of some of the other protagonists in the film (if maybe not for the viewer). Cotton doesn't. And as I wrote, I thought everything that could be said had already been said between Cotton's character and Valli's character. She clearly showed him that she had no interest in him whatsoever, and more than that, that she loved Welles and basically disapproved of Cotton's actions (or have I somehting wrong here, and misunderstood their conversations?). If that is the case, then what does Cotton expect at the end, after he killed Valli's ex? "Hello girl, I 've harassed you and somewhat blackmailed you, I just killed the guy you loved, and as you're coming from his funeral, how about we hit it off now?" I mean that honestly can't be the (implied) meaning of the ending!?!? Cotton's character is somewhat naive and something of an idiot, but he is also perceptive and intelligent and has a brain.

Clueless, yes. Asshole, no. He's a pretty classic Unsophisticated American dealing with Those Europeans. A nearly stereotypical example of Major Strasser's Blundering American, which recalls Captain Renault's line about not underestimating American Blundering, having been with them when they blundered into Berlin in 1918 -- Holly blunders into the truth about Lime's fake death, and reveals it to the smugly superior authorities, the ones who've been telling him to shut up and go home and leave this kind of thing to the professionals, who turn out to have been Clueless themselves. And he does, of course, defend Lime until he gets the real dirt on Lime's activities from Callaway. Yeah, she makes it eminently clear that she's Not Into Him At ALL, straight from the start. Yeah, he's right there at the end, thinking hey how bout that happy ending, and she walks right the fuck by, nope no way.

Of course, the degrees of Holly's assholishness is all in the eye of the beholder -- I'm the guy who finds Fonda's millionaire in THE LADY EVE to be an insufferable fuckhead of such cosmic horror that the notion that anyone falls in love with him, actual real love with him, for reasons that aren't purely utterly mercenary, simply incomprehensible. Mileage varies.